tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post2701340741625096471..comments2023-12-28T04:24:34.561-05:00Comments on Why I Hate Jesus: What is a True Xian?MR. Xhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12384772889207036678noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-56429646944086697732010-11-01T08:36:28.951-04:002010-11-01T08:36:28.951-04:00OK, so how do I put that into practice? How do I ...OK, so how do I put that into practice? How do I decide who is and is not a True Xian?GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-70712740002527304612010-10-31T01:21:13.770-04:002010-10-31T01:21:13.770-04:00Simply put, a Christian is someone who loves, hono...Simply put, a Christian is someone who loves, honors, obeys and worships Jesus.like.a.cannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466587164528324870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-18417462248686857732009-10-12T12:29:57.874-04:002009-10-12T12:29:57.874-04:00Tracy: I'm guessing because this kind of thoug...<b>Tracy: I'm guessing because this kind of thought process on my part drives you crazy.</b><br /><br />On the contrary, it seems to have driven <i>you</i> batshit crazy.Tylernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-9103630540548491882009-10-11T12:44:38.096-04:002009-10-11T12:44:38.096-04:00As for natural observation of the things around us...As for natural observation of the things around us pointing to a creator, don't forget we also observe the sun going around the earth!Goyonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-90691957934591202592009-10-11T12:20:53.616-04:002009-10-11T12:20:53.616-04:00One more..
Leo refers to what the apostle Paul wro...One more..<br /><i>Leo refers to what the apostle Paul wrote in the first chapter of Romans about how all creation testifies to the fact that there's something/someone out there that created it.</i><br /><br />Even forgetting all the points I made previously to this statement, let's say that "creation" is evidence of god's existence... how is it evidence that jesus is that god?<br /><br />There's no particular love for nature coming from the bible. I would think pagan nature gods would be a more appropriate choice if that's your evidence. But either way, how is it compelling enough evidence to make such an important choice, the choice between eternal bliss and eternal torment?<br /><br />If that's all he's giving us to work with, god must be a sadistic bastard (especially so when you consider all the contrary evidence).fuuuuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00405240043522723435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-53691172425529211442009-10-11T08:38:48.341-04:002009-10-11T08:38:48.341-04:00Tracy,
"He's willing to do all He can to ...Tracy,<br />"He's willing to do all He can to bring us to Himself but we've got to come to Him."<br /><br />I will also take issue with this statement, especially since it reads contradictorily. If he's doing all he can, then why would we need to come to him? He's not doing all he can. Besides, if he was doing all he can, he could unambiguously show up, he could talk to us, etc. In fact, if god is omniscient, he would know what each and every one of us need in order to believe in him and being omnipotent he would be able to do it at no cost to himself.<br /><br />Of course, I'm still wondering why belief is valued more highly than anything else. We're talking about belief in a factual matter, the matter of god's existence. It doesn't matter how moral you are, but whether you correctly figured out the "evidence" that is claimed exists (claimed by Paul). Would you think it fair for god to administer a math exam after you die and send you to hell if you fail, regardless of how you've lived your life?GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-41765078954969938992009-10-10T23:07:04.953-04:002009-10-10T23:07:04.953-04:00it's as if He loves us so much He's willin...<i>it's as if He loves us so much <b>He's willing to do all He can to bring us to Himself</b> but we've got to come to Him.</i><br /><br />And on a second reading of what you said, I have to challenge this again.<br /><br />Among the many things he has done to "bring us to him" is give us logic, reason, and inductive and deductive reasoning. Along with the mountains of biological, geological, and cosmological evidence that indicate that he had nothing to do with anything on earth, how could we possibly conclude that he exists?fuuuuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00405240043522723435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-42168946907721693782009-10-10T23:01:47.295-04:002009-10-10T23:01:47.295-04:00Leo refers to what the apostle Paul wrote in the f...<i>Leo refers to what the apostle Paul wrote in the first chapter of Romans about how all creation testifies to the fact that there's something/someone out there that created it.</i><br /><br />Maybe to the ancient people, but after centuries of scientific study, we know the natural explanations for things previously explained by the "god did it" explanation. We also know that the human mind recognizes patterns and to those without the knowledge of the natural means of the world, it can seem designed.<br /><br />If "creation" testifying to the fact that someone created it is all the evidence we need, then why is there so much evidence to the contrary?<br /><br /><i>Faith is a choice but, as I said Eph. 2:8-9 indicates that even our ability to make that choice comes from God, it's as if He loves us so much He's willing to do all He can to bring us to Himself but we've got to come to Him.</i><br /><br />Yes, indeed, he really does love us. He loves us so much that when we don't come to him, he tortures us for eternity. It's tough love. <i>Really</i> tough love.fuuuuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00405240043522723435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-38616833518560888232009-10-10T22:28:01.632-04:002009-10-10T22:28:01.632-04:00That question ethinethin is one of great debate w...That question ethinethin is one of great debate within the Christian community. Leo refers to what the apostle Paul wrote in the first chapter of Romans about how all creation testifies to the fact that there's something/someone out there that created it. I do think Leo has a point that when it's all said and done faith does come in. Faith is a choice but, as I said Eph. 2:8-9 indicates that even our ability to make that choice comes from God, it's as if He loves us so much He's willing to do all He can to bring us to Himself but we've got to come to Him. Like Leo, I do not know why it's this way. In fact there's lots of stuff about God and the Bible that does not work out all neat and perfect for me; GCT you came over to my blog and picked the very post about the Mystery of faith to comment on. I'm guessing because this kind of thought process on my part drives you crazy.Tracyhttp://abundantliving-tracy.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-68835455121077136402009-10-10T21:34:00.311-04:002009-10-10T21:34:00.311-04:00Tracy: ... I know some awesome Muslims, Agnostics,...Tracy: ... I know some awesome Muslims, Agnostics, and Hindus. I suppose there's plenty of kind hearted, atheists out there too.<br /><br />And, according to your superstition, they're all going be tortured for eternity.<br /><br /><i>Love...</i>Tylernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-25256834180058294532009-10-10T21:15:37.482-04:002009-10-10T21:15:37.482-04:00Tracy,
"GCT - in response to your query about...Tracy,<br />"GCT - in response to your query about how one comes to faith, if it's a choice or a gift I would definitely say it is a gift from God."<br /><br />I think ethin does a good job pointing out why this doesn't sit well with atheists. If you take into account that most atheists in this country were Xians, it makes it even more curious.<br /><br />"Guess I didn't do too good a job at explaining but I was trying to say that real belief has corresponding action. So if I believe, then that belief will affect how I live."<br /><br />But, ultimately, god will not determine my eternal location based on my actions/morality.<br /><br />"Your question about: "Define loving god and loving others." I actually think that type of thinking, that desire to make it all black and white is where many problems begin to arise."<br /><br />I wasn't trying to be black/white. What I wanted to point out was that these things are open to interpretation. What you think of as being loving is not necessarily what others would consider loving. And, there's no method for determining which one god would agree with.<br /><br />"But real faith in God is about His grace and belief but it also translates into a good life.<br /><br />I have never said that other people of other beliefs are not living good lives; I know some awesome Muslims, Agnostics, and Hindus. I suppose there's plenty of kind hearted, atheists out there too."<br /><br />Then, I don't know what you are trying to say. Xian belief doesn't transform someone's life into being good anymore than it makes the person more moral. If a homeless person converts to Xianity, that homeless person is still homeless. And, I think from our discussion on the word religion, we can agree that Xians aren't necessarily more moral than others.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-40436303499171342852009-10-10T16:05:14.483-04:002009-10-10T16:05:14.483-04:00Leo "According to God, he has revealed himsel...<b>Leo</b> <i>"According to God, he has revealed himself to everyone so that they are without excuse."</i><br />Well, first that's according to Paul. Second, the amazing thing about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_revelation" rel="nofollow">General Revelation</a> is that it always leads to the wrong answer.Modusoperandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213914791604385761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-315557924620715692009-10-10T14:34:30.488-04:002009-10-10T14:34:30.488-04:00"God's not revealing himself to everyone&..."God's not revealing himself to everyone"<br /><br />Christianity is based on faith. God will only reveal himself to a certain extent, you must make some leap of faith. Don't ask me why it's this way, but that's the way it is. According to God, he has revealed himself to everyone so that they are without excuse. It's similar to how a child is taught to walk. His/her mommy or daddy kneels just far enough away from the child that it's impossible for the child to get there only by leaning. The child MUST take a step to get there.Leonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-59285434877464714262009-10-10T13:10:29.228-04:002009-10-10T13:10:29.228-04:00in response to your query about how one comes to f...<i>in response to your query about how one comes to faith, if it's a choice or a gift I would definitely say it is a gift from God.</i><br /><br />Then why are there so many people who do not believe in the christian god?<br /><br />Don't you see the problem here?<br /><br />God's not revealing himself to everyone, and damning those many billions of people he ignores to hell for eternity.<br /><br />I am an atheist, but I am agnostic. If there was evidence that god was real, I would most likely worship him to avoid the punishment of not worshiping him. I am open to the possibility of him existing, yet he has never revealed himself (despite supposedly having that power). Why does he want me to go to hell?fuuuuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00405240043522723435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-85151843814753729182009-10-10T11:41:02.877-04:002009-10-10T11:41:02.877-04:00Tracy:
all of the things you listed above, I part...Tracy: <br />all of the things you listed above, I participate in too. Which proves nothing. What is the difference in our lives then? You even have the holy spirit as a guide in your life and I don't. <br />That's why this is such an interesting question GCT posed. Every xtian has their own definition of what a xtian is. And you also know who isn't a xtian. But you can't nail it down here.Goyonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-36598647775915103372009-10-09T22:48:01.304-04:002009-10-09T22:48:01.304-04:00GCT - in response to your query about how one come...GCT - in response to your query about how one comes to faith, if it's a choice or a gift I would definitely say it is a gift from God. In support of this I point to Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. I see this as saying that even the ability to believe in God in the first place is a gift from Him.<br /><br />You also responded to my explanation about belief that then:<br /><br />"god seems to be more concerned with our beliefs than our morals."<br /><br />Guess I didn't do too good a job at explaining but I was trying to say that real belief has corresponding action. So if I believe, then that belief will affect how I live.<br /><br />Your question about: "Define loving god and loving others." I actually think that type of thinking, that desire to make it all black and white is where many problems begin to arise. I believe that in each day I must be open to God, to the Holy Spirit within me, as to how loving God and loving the people in my life will look in specific circumstances. Maybe one time it will look like extending a lot of grace to my 16yr old son when he's being a teen age know it all, giving a stranded person's car a jump with my cables, giving food to a homeless person who approaches me for $, etc. I can't detail it all in advance. Not sure if I'm explaining this very well. But real faith in God is about His grace and belief but it also translates into a good life.<br /><br />I have never said that other people of other beliefs are not living good lives; I know some awesome Muslims, Agnostics, and Hindus. I suppose there's plenty of kind hearted, atheists out there too.Tracyhttp://abundantliving-tracy.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-24191611782354134082009-10-09T17:50:24.687-04:002009-10-09T17:50:24.687-04:00Tracy,
"The debate is about the fact that his...Tracy,<br />"The debate is about the fact that historic Christian doctrine is that we come to God by faith, a faith or ability to believe that He gives us in the first place, and that we just have to believe in Him and choose to follow Him and accept His death on the cross as payment for our sin."<br /><br />I'm a little confused. Does god give us this faith or do we choose to believe? If the latter, I would ask you to see if you could choose to believe in Zeus for a day.<br /><br />"So, as you correctly point out GCT, it's about beliefs. It's not about good stuff we do."<br /><br />The problem I have with this is that god seems to be more concerned with our beliefs than our morals.<br /><br />"...if our belief is sincere, there should be a lifestyle of loving God and loving people (Jesus said these were the greatest commandments and all else hinges on this)."<br /><br />Define loving god and loving others. I'm sure that Fred Phelps feels that he's loving god by holding to his commands against homosexuality, and also loving others by doing what he can to warn us of our follies.<br /><br />"God reveals Himself to people."<br /><br />Then why do atheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. exist? Did you mean to say that god reveals himself only to some people?<br /><br />"But I certainly can say that I hope those people who are in my life; my neighbors, people at work, my family, etc. can see a love I have a lifestyle that shows God's goodness. How that could work in an internet conversation is an interesting concept."<br /><br />There are people of other religions and no religion, however, that have the same hopes. In practice, we don't see a difference between Xians in morality and happiness than followers of other religions or no religion at all. In fact, a better measure of happiness is certainty in one's views. The more certain one is, the more happy, whether that certainty is in the Xian god, another god, or no god.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-3410472465135541992009-10-09T13:25:12.463-04:002009-10-09T13:25:12.463-04:00Gee GCT, in your comment back to me you bring up a...Gee GCT, in your comment back to me you bring up a classic Christian debate topic (I even have a post about it entitled "Fruit instead of works" from August). The debate is about the fact that historic Christian doctrine is that we come to God by faith, a faith or ability to believe that He gives us in the first place, and that we just have to believe in Him and choose to follow Him and accept His death on the cross as payment for our sin. So, as you correctly point out GCT, it's about beliefs. It's not about good stuff we do. Yet, if our beliefs are real, they will result in corresponding action. For example, if I believed a room was burning, really believed it, I would have the corresponding action of getting out of the room. So, in Christian circles, there is this big discussion about how we come to relationship with God based on belief alone, yet, if our belief is sincere, there should be a lifestyle of loving God and loving people (Jesus said these were the greatest commandments and all else hinges on this). That's why in response to you over on my blog I made the comment that I have no desire to try to convince you that you're wrong because I don't think that will ever work. God reveals Himself to people. But I certainly can say that I hope those people who are in my life; my neighbors, people at work, my family, etc. can see a love I have a lifestyle that shows God's goodness. How that could work in an internet conversation is an interesting concept.Tracyhttp://abundantliving-tracy.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-60582584131128885242009-10-09T11:40:04.398-04:002009-10-09T11:40:04.398-04:00Pastor: Also, I believe you are forgetting that it...Pastor: Also, I believe you are forgetting that it is not I, but the word of God that calls you a fool. I simply quoted God Almighty.<br /><br />So, you disagree with god, then...?<br /><br /><br />(I'm getting a strong Poe vibe off Pastor this morning, but I've only had one cup of coffee yet...)Tylernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-54188348468433974892009-10-09T11:02:03.650-04:002009-10-09T11:02:03.650-04:00By their standard of "fool" maybe.
Al...By their standard of "fool" maybe. <br /><br />Also, I believe you are forgetting that it is not I, but the word of God that calls you a fool. I simply quoted God Almighty.Pastornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-26801434121336134272009-10-09T10:18:41.994-04:002009-10-09T10:18:41.994-04:00Pastor,
"You are not a child of God GCT, so y...Pastor,<br />"You are not a child of God GCT, so your scripture about "you fool" does not apply. It clearly says "brother" and you are NOT my brother. At least not yet."<br /><br />So, you think that people who don't believe as you do are open game for your insults, ridicule, etc? If you want to attack my ideas and arguments, that's fine. But, all you've done so far is launch personal attacks. That's all right though, it shows the weakness of your position.<br /><br />"The other actually says "lest he" not "or he" and it's part of a larger theme. Discussing scripture with the unsaved is like discussing logic with a drunkard."<br /><br />I suggest that you try again. You were talking about how to handle "fools" and claiming in multiple passages not to talk to "fools" (although you call me a fool and here you are talking to me). The passage I cited tells you the exact opposite.<br /><br />Of course, I'm now wondering why a Muslim can't make the comment that anyone who doesn't believe in Allah is a fool, which would make you rather foolish, would it not?GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-37596386094067429002009-10-09T10:13:07.681-04:002009-10-09T10:13:07.681-04:00Tracy,
"The core of Christian teaching is tha...Tracy,<br />"The core of Christian teaching is that we are all imperfect, we all sin. But God's perfect and we can't get to Him. Sin can not be paid for without the shedding of blood (all those Old Testament sacrifices) and Jesus, God in the flesh, shed His blood in our place. If we accept this and choose to follow Him, we are Christians. So, obviously, we can not know for sure what goes on in someone else's deepest heart and soul, if someone else really chose to turn away from their sin and follow Christ (hence this whole dialogue about being Christ like). Because also at the core of Christianity is God's grace; while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. So maybe someone doesn't look so great to us, but we're all in process so who am I to say. I do think it's fair for someone like BJ to say, as he did, about Fred Philps, that he certainly is not a sterling example of Christianity."<br /><br />This seems like a contradiction to me. You're saying that we can't know who is or is not a Xian, but then turn around and say that Fred Phelps is not? Or did you simply mean that he's not a sterling example of a human being? Your definition of being a Xian seems to be about beliefs, not about actions and morality. So, the fact that Phelps seems to be an immoral a-hole has no bearing on his Xian stature.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-26782171969483039362009-10-09T10:07:06.620-04:002009-10-09T10:07:06.620-04:00BJ,
""know" is a term i guess i hav...BJ,<br />""know" is a term i guess i have used loosely; i feel certain about these things. however i agree with you; i have no assurance yet still believe.<br /><br />i do not claim to have anything more than you guys in smarts - i just believe, however scientifically flawed that may be."<br /><br />It's very flawed (no offense) and it's something that I bring up quite often. We have no way of determining who is correct and who is not when it comes to differing brands of religion...except by recourse to empirical evidence. We know the YEC is incorrect as well as we can know anything, because the empirical evidence simply doesn't agree with a young Earth. When it comes to describing god and what god wants, however, we can't claim to know anything, and anyone who does is either dishonest or mistaken (or other things). We can't know that god is good or wants us to be saved or etc.<br /><br />So, why is this important? It's important because the gods that people believe in are ultimately of their own making.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-68869435689255074552009-10-08T23:29:35.256-04:002009-10-08T23:29:35.256-04:00If I can interject here, "Ye shall know them ...If I can interject here, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_of_the_holy_spirit" rel="nofollow">"Ye shall know them by their fruits."</a>Modusoperandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213914791604385761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5246253500962288290.post-86445021474780104852009-10-08T22:03:31.657-04:002009-10-08T22:03:31.657-04:00Tracy: The core of Christian teaching is that we a...Tracy: The core of Christian teaching is that we are all imperfect, we all sin.<br /><br />What is the standard of perfection by which all humans are judged imperfect?<br /><br /><br /><br />Tracy: But God's perfect...<br /><br />Seriously? The biblical god is insecure, jealous, vindictive, violent, petulant, bigoted... oh, I could go on. If that's the standard of perfection humans are to live up to, I'd say most of them have done a bang up job.<br /><br />There are some who strive for a higher standard of "perfection," however.<br /><br /><br />Tracy: Sin can not be paid for without the shedding of blood...<br /><br />Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I've never asked for blood from someone who's wronged me. <br /><br /><br /><br />Tracy: ... (all those Old Testament sacrifices) and Jesus, God in the flesh, shed His blood in our place.<br /><br />That's the best a "perfect" being can do? Requiring the shedding of blood to atone for one's shortcomings?<br /><br />Blood! BLOOD! God is perfect and he wants blood!<br /><br />If it were true, it wouldn't be fucking hilarious.<br /><br /><br /><br />Tracy: Because also at the core of Christianity is God's grace; while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.<br /><br />In other words, at the core of christianity is pawning one's responsibility off on someone else. <br /><br /><br />Tracy: I do think it's fair for someone like BJ to say, as he did, about Fred Philps, that he certainly is not a sterling example of Christianity.<br /><br />On the contrary, Phelps is more godlike than most people who call themselves christians.Tylernoreply@blogger.com