Last week, Howard Unruh died at the ripe old age of 88 after 60 years of incarceration. For those who don't know who Mr. Unruh was, he went on a shooting spree in 1949 that killed 13 people in Camden, NJ. He had been in WWII and then came home to live with his mother. He often went with her to St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church and frequently read his Bible according to people who knew him. Apparently, he made a list of people he wanted to target, people that he felt were persecuting and belittling him, "that they were thinking of him as a homosexual." After the shootings, a search of his room turned up "700 cartridges, a book called the Shooter's Bible (he had used the building's basement for target practice) and a New Testament." [emphasis mine]
Yup, you can't be moral without god.
(note: All quotes taken from The Globe and Mail obituary report of Oct. 21.)
46 comments:
I'm not sure I'm catching the point you're making here GCT. Some nut goes on a killing spree and quotes the Bible - are you saying this is yet another reason to think the Bible is a bad influence?
Some of your points in other posts have been strong, but this one presents rather a straw man.
Yeah. Not the strongest link. Heck, I own a bible.
I think it's fairly obvious that he's trying to show that atheists don't have a monopoly on evil deeds as so many theists (Leo...) will claim.
He forgot, though, Unruh is not a true christian™.
"... are you saying this is yet another reason to think the Bible is a bad influence?"
It certainly doesn't appear to have been a good influence in this instance.
Of course, the relatively infinitesimal good bits in the bible are like a nickel buried in a ton of elephant shit. Maybe he was just really pissed off that 5 cents was all he got for the effort of digging through a ton of shit, and someone was gonna pay, goddamnit.
Without more information, we have no idea what his motivations/state of mind really was.
1) I've actually had Xians tell me that people who go on these shooting rampages are always atheists, which is obviously untrue, and here is one more example.
2) Where was the transformative power of god to help this obviously mentally unstable man?
3) Being a Xian doesn't make one more moral than anyone else.
4) I just thought it was interesting.
"1) I've actually had Xians tell me that people who go on these shooting rampages are always atheists, which is obviously untrue, and here is one more example."
Really? Or have they said that the people who do this are not Christians and you inferred that to mean they were atheists?
"2) Where was the transformative power of god to help this obviously mentally unstable man?"
Reading the Bible (or any religious book) does not transform someone. Christians believe that God transforms people thru the Holy Spirit. They closely align this with being saved, not reading the bible.
"3) Being a Xian doesn't make one more moral than anyone else."
Fine to assert this, but your blog entry doesn't confirm that in any way.
"4) I just thought it was interesting."
You have quite a warped mind for what is interesting. I believe you attempted to assert a point that you failed to back up.
"Really? Or have they said that the people who do this are not Christians and you inferred that to mean they were atheists?"
Yes, really. I even asked for clarification.
"Reading the Bible (or any religious book) does not transform someone. Christians believe that God transforms people thru the Holy Spirit. They closely align this with being saved, not reading the bible."
This was a devout person who went to church regularly and regularly studied his Bible. Sorry, but you seem to be dangerously close to telling me that he wasn't a True Xian.
"Fine to assert this, but your blog entry doesn't confirm that in any way."
Um, yeah it does in that it shows a specific example of someone who was a Xian murdering 13 people.
"You have quite a warped mind for what is interesting. I believe you attempted to assert a point that you failed to back up."
You can believe what you want, but I found the fact that it was mentioned that he had a Bible and regularly went to church and studied his Bible to be rather interesting. I also found his remarks about homosexuality to be interesting. If there weren't such a bigoted attitude towards homosexuals in Xianity, would he have latched onto that?
So if someone owns 1/2 of a Bible and has attended a church at some interval they are automatically a Christian?
Do you really feel the need so badly to disassociate yourself and Xianity with anyone "bad" that you'll stoop to levels such as this? You actually are trying to deny that he was a Xian? Why? It's not like you can deny all the other attrocities that have been committed by Xians throughout history. So, why try so hard now?
So the answer to my question was, "Yes." Could've saved your energy if you just said that. I am simply saying that in this story which you've posted, the evidence this guy was a Christian is minimal. They didn't find a complete Bible. He was not a member of a church. Nobody has said if he considered himself to be "saved" or not. You could point to the homophobic nature of the gun culture, the lack of a father figure, etc. as reasons for his actions. You immediately want to point at Christianity because you have a chip on your shoulder about it. The truth is, the message of the Bible (ESPECIALLY THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHICH IS WHAT HE WAS READING) is one of loving one another, even those whose actions you dislike or would judge sinful.
I come from a Christian family, and don't believe that any of those Christian people would agree with this man's actions, or reconcile them with anything in the New Testament.
Anon: I come from a Christian family...
Hey... me too!
(Which is more or less tantamount to justifying being a child molester because one was born into a family of child molesters.)
Anon: ... and don't believe that any of those Christian people would agree with this man's actions, or reconcile them with anything in the New Testament.
Nah, there are no calls or allusions to violence in the New Testament. Nosiree, none at all.
Christian denial at its finest.
Grow up, boy.
Ok, show me an example of violence towards homosexuals in the New Testament.
And you missed the point of me speaking of my family, moron.
I find that whole story really sad. As a CA licensed nursing home administrator I've always ran psychiatric facilities, and I've met some folks along the way who are really ill and have all kinds of religious ideations. These folks are not reflective of the religious groups that they have their un real perceptions about; they are reflective of mental illness. I do not know any specifics about the person in the article you cite, but his actions certainly look deeply disturbed.
I've got to agree with Anonymous that reading the Bible or any other religious book does not make one a follower. Once before on this site I quoted Brennan Manning's conversion explanation (so I'll spare you the repeat)that I so appreciate; he refers to the conversion experience of a person to Christianity as being "seized by a great affection". My point being that it is an experience, a relationship; you can call it "being saved" as Anonymous does if you like. I mean honestly GCT, you've obviously read the Bible a lot and you, by your own assertion, are not a Christian.
Of course I believe you GCT that some person(s) said goofy stuff like only atheists do these terrible things. I bet we can find people out in our world that say all kinds of rubbish. But, as I've mentioned before, these folks are on the small end of the bell curve, not the typical.
Anon: Ok, show me an example of violence towards homosexuals in the New Testament.
Not only have you misread GCT's post (Unruh was pissed off because people were accusing him of being homosexual, not the other way around, you blithering dolt), but your ignorance and/or outright denial of what's in the bible is on par with that of, well, most people who call themselves christian.
Anon: And you missed the point of me speaking of my family, moron.
The fact that your family is as deluded as you are is irrelevant, and I didn't miss your point at all. I simply didn't dignify it by giving you an opportunity to continue beating around the NTS bush, boy.
The point was I don't share their faith, dick. I do however respect it, and don't like to see it misrepresented.
And you said, "Nah, there are no calls or allusions to violence in the New Testament." Let's see what you've got. If you had been speaking of the OT, I'd have believed it. Show me a Christian being violent in the New Testament.
Tracy: These folks are not reflective of the religious groups that they have their un real perceptions about...
As opposed to your "unreal" perception of your religion...?
Tracy: ... they are reflective of mental illness.
'Isn't it interesting; religious behavior is so close to being crazy that we can't tell them apart.'
Tracy: I do not know any specifics about the person in the article you cite, but his actions certainly look deeply disturbed.
As opposed to, say, "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."
Why, by that standard, Unruh was perfectly sane.
Tracy: I've got to agree with Anonymous that reading the Bible or any other religious book does not make one a follower.
Now that's a straw man.
Anon: The point was I don't share their faith, dick.
Good for you. It's still irrelevant past pointing out that you're beating around the NTS bush.
Anon: And you said, "Nah, there are no calls or allusions to violence in the New Testament." Let's see what you've got.
Well, that whole hell thingy is pretty violent, for starters.
:snort:
Anon: Show me a Christian being violent in the New Testament.
That's not what I said. Jesus fuckin' christ, you quote me verbatim, then manage to utterly misrepresent what I said two sentences later. That's a whole lotta stupid right there, boy.
Tracy,
I happen to agree with you that Unruh was clearly in need of psychiatric help, help which he obviously didn't get. Maybe it was because he was a regular church-goer and everyone around felt that he was Xian, and therefore incapable of doing what he did. Maybe it was simply the bias against mental illness that we tend to have in our culture. Probably all of the above and more. And, yes, it is sad.
"I've got to agree with Anonymous that reading the Bible or any other religious book does not make one a follower. Once before on this site I quoted Brennan Manning's conversion explanation (so I'll spare you the repeat)that I so appreciate; he refers to the conversion experience of a person to Christianity as being "seized by a great affection". My point being that it is an experience, a relationship..."
No one has said that that's my argument, except for Anon (it's a strawman). But, as for having a "relationship," you have no assurance that you have a relationship with the god you worship or that other people have not.
"Of course I believe you GCT that some person(s) said goofy stuff like only atheists do these terrible things. I bet we can find people out in our world that say all kinds of rubbish."
Agreed, and hopefully most of us here realize that it's rubbish.
Anon,
"I am simply saying that in this story which you've posted, the evidence this guy was a Christian is minimal."
Except that he self-identified as a Xian, went to church religiously, etc.
"The truth is, the message of the Bible (ESPECIALLY THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHICH IS WHAT HE WAS READING) is one of loving one another, even those whose actions you dislike or would judge sinful."
Actually, the message of the NT is that we are all degenerate scumbags that deserve to die horribly and be tortured and that most of us will.
"Show me a Christian being violent in the New Testament."
I know of a Jew being violent in the NT...Jesus was pretty violent when he fashioned a whip and forcibly removed people from the temple.
Tyler said,
"Anon: Show me a Christian being violent in the New Testament.
That's not what I said. Jesus fuckin' christ, you quote me verbatim, then manage to utterly misrepresent what I said two sentences later. That's a whole lotta stupid right there, boy."
Previously Tyler said (with obvious sarcasm)...
"Nah, there are no calls or allusions to violence in the New Testament. Nosiree, none at all."
I asked you to put up or shut up. You weren't capable of doing either. Now sit down, son, while the grown-ups talk.
GCT, really? Jesus in the temple? That's your violent example? Not quite on par with murder.
Tyler - if just reading the Bible made one a Christian, then both you and GCT would be one. You're both obviously well versed in Bible facts.
I do see your point that the man was saying he was a Christian. He just sounds so mentally ill to me.
GCT - See we do agree sometimes! We both agree that all bad acts are not committed by atheists and that this man was psychotic.
I hate the fact that there is such a bias against the mentally ill (if you read my blog you'll notice that periodically I have some post where I vent about something related to the mentally ill in America), and sometimes Christians get simplistic about the whole situation and do not see the illness for what it is.
I can understand why you would say that:"you have no assurance that you have a relationship with the god you worship or that other people have not." You are correct in that I can not absolutely know what goes on between someone else and God. But I can know about myself.
Anon: I asked you to put up or shut up.
No, that's not what you asked, liar. You asked a question that had nothing to do with what I said.
Anon: You weren't capable of doing either.
I'm capable of backing up my statements. Of course, it's pointless to do so when the person I'm speaking to isn't capable of understanding said statements.
Anon: Now sit down, son, while the grown-ups talk.
:snort: Someone's obviously suffering from a hormone storm.
Tracy: Tyler - if just reading the Bible made one a Christian...
No one is saying such a thing.
Straw man.
Tracy: You're both obviously well versed in Bible facts.
Mmm, no, I'm (we're) well versed in facts about the bible. There are few actual facts to be found in the book, and the few that are there are relatively inconsequential.
Tracy: I do see your point that the man was saying he was a Christian. He just sounds so mentally ill to me.
Obviously. Of course, the difference between his mental illness and the essential delusion of theism is only a matter of degree.
Tracy "I do see your point that the man was saying he was a Christian. He just sounds so mentally ill to me."
Yup.
"I can not absolutely know what goes on between someone else and God."
True. We barely even know what's going on in our own heads, much less somebody elses. Adding in another party to that just complicates things immeasurably.
"But I can know about myself."
Keep in mind that everybody else gets to say the same thing.
Tracy,
"I hate the fact that there is such a bias against the mentally ill..."
Quite agreed.
"I can understand why you would say that:"you have no assurance that you have a relationship with the god you worship or that other people have not." You are correct in that I can not absolutely know what goes on between someone else and God. But I can know about myself."
Actually, you can't. Can you know for certain that you aren't in the matrix? Can you know for certain that the sensations that you think you feel are really of the supernatural variety? Even if they were, how can you tell one supernatural entity from another? Don't you think that something that can subvert the laws of physics might be able to fool you? You may have a great relationship with a devil that pretends to be Yahweh in order to lead you away from the one true god, Allah.
Anon,
"GCT, really? Jesus in the temple? That's your violent example? Not quite on par with murder."
Are those goal posts heavy? You asked for an example of violence, I gave you one. If you want an example of murder, well then you simply need to read up on Revelations where we're told about all kinds of attrocious acts that will supposedly happen, including murder IIRC. Either way, the NT is not the peace and love fest that you so claim it is. Even if Jesus didn't murder anyone outright, he does introduce the idea of hell and being deserving of it, which are hateful and evil in themselves.
Jesus does not introduce the idea of Hell. That was an OT introduction.
I understand what you're saying about in your mind I can not know what is reality GCT and I can see why, human wisdom leads you to that conclusion.
Faith is a choice and it's one I've made and been greatly blessed because of.
While Jesus was not the first to be quoted as bringing up the topic of hell, He certainly did mention it. I always find it interesting that people don't like that God lets evil exist but then they don't like when He judges it in Revelation.
Throughout the Bible there is the theme that we can not understand God or His plans fully with human reasoning - we have to choose to believe and accept Him on His terms. By this I do not mean that it is wrong to question God; I'm constantly questioning what I believe; sometimes I get answers and sometimes I don't. By faith I choose to continue. Yesterday I read the following words from 1 Corinthians 1:18-23 (NIV) that are in line with this same concept:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles
Anon: Jesus does not introduce the idea of Hell. That was an OT introduction.
The idea of 'hell' as a place of eternal, inescapable torment was indeed introduced by Jesus. No such beast exists in the OT/judaism.
Tracy: Faith is a choice...
According to that book of fables you're fond of selectively quoting - commonly referred to as the bible - faith is not a choice.
Tracy: I always find it interesting that people don't like that God lets evil exist but then they don't like when He judges it in Revelation.
Which is a problem only those who believe in the biblical god can have. I mean, it's not like non-christains think a god they don't believe in allows anything to exist.
What's interesting is that you seem to have no problem with the idea that someone, say, Hitler, can commit as much evil as he possibly can, and, with a little groveling at the feet of your god, can escape judgment for the evil he committed, while someone like, say, Ghandi, can spend most of his life trying to help people overcome evil, yet is condemned to eternal punishment because he didn't bow down to your god.
Which means that, at the end of the day, it's not evil that god is judging at all, but someone's willingness to stroke his gargantuan ego.
Tracy: Throughout the Bible there is the theme that we can not understand God...
Throughout the bible is the theme that god doesn't want everyone to understand him.
Tracy: By faith I choose to continue.
By fear you choose to continue... to have faith that the monster under your bed really does exist. Until you choose to summon the intestinal fortitude to look under your bed and find your fears are utterly unfounded, you're going to suffer for your choice.
Tracy,
"I understand what you're saying about in your mind I can not know what is reality GCT and I can see why, human wisdom leads you to that conclusion.
Faith is a choice and it's one I've made and been greatly blessed because of."
It's not human wisdom, but simply observing the universe around us and knowing our limitations. And, "faith" as an answer simply doesn't cut it. Without some reason to have faith that your idea of god is correct, you're making wild guesses in the dark. The infinite possibilities would make the task of guessing correctly to be all but impossible.
"I always find it interesting that people don't like that God lets evil exist but then they don't like when He judges it in Revelation."
That's not quite my argument. I do argue that god should not allow evil if god is omni-benevolent and really does care about us, and that that is quite separate from god deciding to perpetuate that evil by seeking vengeance instead of justice after we die. So, for a tyrant that murders many people, to torture that person after death for eternity simply adds on hate and anger and evil to the hate, anger, and evil that that person has already committed. Additionally, there is nothing that finite beings can do that requires or merits infinite punishment. I'm against all forms of torture as well.
Also, I should point out that when god punishes us for our part in evil, he is really passing the buck. He is ultimately responsible (the buck stops with god) since he created the universe knowing all that would happen at the time of creation. So, in essence, god allows evil (really creates it) and then punishes us for what he has done. It's doubly wrong of god.
"Throughout the Bible there is the theme that we can not understand God or His plans fully with human reasoning - we have to choose to believe and accept Him on His terms."
Which creates quite a dilemma, does it not? It leads to a circular logic that doesn't work for me. I first have to believe that god exists (have faith) in order to believe that god exists. Yet, it's not something that one simply chooses. Do you choose to believe in god? Could you choose to believe in Zeus?
Tracy, I appreciate your efforts, and you will be blessed for attempting to convert these boys, at some point you must dust off your feet and move on. You could have seen God personally, taken a polaroid, and showed it to them, and they would still not believe unless they saw it with their own two eyes. They use the gift of examination God intended to detect "antichristos" or "pseudochristos" from the true Christ, and have abused it in an attempt to dethrone Christ, which, as we know is impossible. As with all men, they will one day bow before the Lord, either out of reverence, or as a conquered people to the victor. If they choose to reject mercy and grace in favor of judgment, it is without excuse.
:chortle:
Oh go fuck yourself, Leo.
Leo,
Of course you say that we won't accept evidence only because you have none to offer. If you had a picture of god, it might be a different matter. As it is, you're very short on evidence. All I'm asking for is something, anything that you can give me that doesn't rely on logical fallacy. You can't even provide that much.
I will not waste my time on a hardened heart. There are many in need of the gospel. If you haven't felt any kind of conviction over your sins, then you are not in a position to be saved anyway.
My post was only directed to Tracy.
That's the point Leo, there's only one hardened heart here and it is your's. I'm open to evidence and logical reasoning, you are not. I'm open to changing my mind based on what you present, you are not. The problem is that you have nothing to present. You can complain about how we won't accept your imaginary evidence, but it won't make a lick of difference until you actually present some evidence to see how we respond.
Ah, c'mon, Leo. That was your chance to give us compelling evidence that Yahweh really exists.
My heart isn't hardened, my standards for evidence are pretty "high" (although not really high when you consider what evidence is and how it is used). Objective, corroborated evidence.
"I talk to God and he talks back" does not qualify -- people of all faiths say this (and believe it).
"God has shown himself to me" -- you could be lying or delusional. Why hasn't God shown himself to me?
"The bible has a mathematical code..." -- could be a coincidence or could intentionally written that way, although the "Bible Code" thing is a relatively big hoax (since the people analyzing it never use an objective standard and tend to ignore the "misses").
"Christianity is the only religion that requires grace for salvation instead of works" -- not necessarily true, but how is that evidence in its favor? From the amount of knowledge we know about God (none), how can we decide that this is the most likely way he would judge us?
"The bible is infallible" -- then why are the genealogies of Jesus incompatible? Women aren't mentioned in those, but they are mentioned further down the line?
There are other errors which would rule the bible to be fallible (such as the authors having little cosmological and biological knowledge and showing it often), but all you need is one.
Just... give me some evidence, Leo.
Leo: I will not waste my time on a hardened heart. There are many in need of the gospel. If you haven't felt any kind of conviction over your sins, then you are not in a position to be saved anyway.
"As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom."
See ya in hell, Leo.
Leo: My post was only directed to Tracy.
No, it wasn't, liar.
"I'm open to evidence and logical reasoning"
Without faith, one cannot receive the Lord. That was the point. Until you are willing to admit that faith has a place in the discussion, there is no point in continuing it. You have faith in so many things, but refuse to use it in relation to God.
Tyler - Wasn't lying. Although if someone here were to be converted, it would very likely be you. It's always the most bitter, angry ones. They have the passion, and it is just misdirected. That said, I didn't come here to argue, and rather to suggest Tracy move on as well. Have fun serving the one who will leave you for dead soon. You have no promising future, so enjoy what you can today.
You have faith in so many things, but refuse to use it in relation to God.
We "have faith in so many things"? Give me an example of something I have faith in -- as in, a belief in with no supporting evidence. You're using different definitions of the word.
Leo,
We shouldn't simply believe things without some reason to believe. If the reason to believe is that I simply have to first believe, then that is circular reasoning and not very compelling. Why should I not simply believe in Allah or Vishnu or Zeus? When you can answer that question in a satisfactory way, you'll be getting somewhere. Hint: if a follower of any other religion can use the same argument as you, then it's not going to be compelling to you, so don't think it would be compelling for me.
"You have faith in so many things, but refuse to use it in relation to God."
You are conflating. The "faith" that I have in things like chairs holding my weight comes from empirical evidence of chairs actually working. The "faith" that you talk about in regards to god is completely blind and without empirical footing.
Leo: Without faith, one cannot receive the Lord. That was the point.
"Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter." - allah
See ya in hell, Leo.
Leo: You have faith in so many things...
I don't have faith in anything.
Leo: Tyler - Wasn't lying.
Yeah, you were, liar.
Leo: Although if someone here were to be converted, it would very likely be you.
:snort:
Leo: It's always the most bitter, angry ones. They have the passion, and it is just misdirected.
Like Anon, huh.
:snicker:
Leo: That said, I didn't come here to argue, and rather to suggest Tracy move on as well.
Why don't you try leading by example and let Tracy make up her own mind.
Leo: Have fun serving the one who will leave you for dead soon.
I serve someone who's going to leave me for dead?
Leo: You have no promising future...
As opposed to your future of waking up every day for the rest of your pathetic life believing you're a vile piece of shit who deserves to be tortured forever unless you kiss up to your imaginary bogyman, huh.
If that's what you consider "promising," I'll pass, thank you very much.
Leo: ... so enjoy what you can today.
Oh, don't you worry yourself none about that, Leo. I'm havin' a ball! :)
Eat shit and die, Leo, you self-righteous, sanctimonious. arrogant asshole!!
Witty retort, genius. Go home.
Leo
I've thought quite a bit about what you've said directly to me here.
First off, I want to let you know that I've appreciated all your posts here. We obviously serve the same God, and I respect your faith.
I am grateful at your concern for me and the encouragement that you are extending toward me - thank you.
You are absolutely correct. I can not "convert these boys".
Nor do I try.
I believe that the Bible teaches that one of the Holy Spirit's jobs is to convict people of their sin and need for a savior. It's not my job.
All I can do is share about my life, be open about what I believe and what He has done for me.
I notice that sometimes people get kind of hostile on this site. While I'm not fazed when it's Tyler, I'm puzzled when it's Anonymous since it would seem that we are of like faith. I suppose it could be because Anon, you and I love the same God and it is hurtful when people speak badly of one you love. But I do not take it personally. God does not need me to defend Him; He is the King above all Kings and Lord above all Lords, the mighty Creator of the Universe - you think He needs me to stick up for Him? I leave it to God to judge and deal with people. I want to just get to know people, be real, be honest about my faith. What these "boys" as you refer to them here, or anyone else, chooses to do with what I say is up to them.
Also, I find myself drawn to GCT; he's shown himself to be smart and compassionate, he's sarcastic and funny; sometimes I find this site an interesting read. Modusoperandi sometimes makes amusing comments. Hummm....I'm not so good at explaining myself here.
I guess my main thought Leo is that I appreciate your concern, but you don't need to be worried about me.
To anonymous number 2: number 2 is a perfect description of your idiotic response to the #1 anonymous' post to the smug, holier-than-thou, jackass Leo. Since you bring up "witty retorts", I'll bet this one will fly right over your head, moron!
From: Anonymous #1
Tracy: I believe that the Bible teaches that one of the Holy Spirit's jobs is to convict people of their sin and need for a savior.
The bible also teaches that slavery is moral and disobedient children are to be stoned to death, but you don't really believe all that bullshit, right?
Tracy: I notice that sometimes people get kind of hostile on this site. While I'm not fazed when it's Tyler...
Here you are, droning on and on about this monstrous imaginary friend of yours, who's allegedly going to throw most people who will ever live into a fire so they can burn forever, and I'm the hostile one.
Too funny.
Sanctimonious bitch.
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