One of the Xian commenters here, Tracy, has her own blog (linked to her name) where she recently had a post with the following passage:
There's nothing I wouldn't do for my children; and to think that God calls me His child...
So, why do children starve to death? Why do children get beaten and raped, especially by those who claim to be this same god's emissaries here on Earth as catholic priests claim? Why are children mistreated in any way by others while god sits there and watches? In fact, if we are all god's children, why does he not help all of us?
god, being omniscient surely knows that children are being made to suffer on this world. god, being omnipotent surely has the ability to do something about it. Yet, it's demonstrable that children still suffer on this world. Since god is also supposedly omnipresent, doesn't that indicate that god is there, watching these children suffer and doing nothing to stop it? How cruel is that. How uncaring, indifferent, vile, and evil. Is there any defense for this? Most of us would do all we could to help children that are not even our own, yet god sits there and watches as his children are brutalized, beaten, raped, starve, etc. and has the power to stop it, yet he watches it go on and does nothing. This is not a god that loves us, and people should stop making excuses for such a god if he does exist.
10 comments:
Thank you for posting this. I've been posting this very obvious problem with God for months now..
Christians only argue and make excuses instead of facing the reality..
"There's nothing I wouldn't do for my children;"
Except, apparently, allowing them to grow up without terrorizing the fuck out of them with christianity.
TD,
I notice you also posted there and neither of our latest comments have generated a single response. I too feel as though they've tried to dance around the issue, which is why I've tried to re-state my stance multiple times using different ways of saying it.
I'm so used to them dancing around the issues, I've given up on one of them actually trying to articulate any kind of response..
It's sad when people with perfectly good brains choose to turn them off..
I think we can all agree that such things as children beaten, raped, starved, etc. are very evil. But what is evil? You talk about the acts of evil people, evil acts, and the evilness of poverty but are there evil molecules floating in the air? Or some black shadow that latches on to people causing them to do evil things? answer:No...
The bible does state that God created everything but evil is not a thing. The very word “sin,” often used in the New Testament, is the Greek word: “hamartia” which literally means “to miss the mark.” Evil is sin. Therefore evil is a departure from God's will.
As i mentioned in a past post, God gives us a free will. He gives us a choice to follow Him. But there is no choice if there's only one option. If God only gave us the option to do good we would be like robots without a conscience. Im sure that you would agree, free will is a good thing.
God created us for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) But why jump to the conclusion that the Creator is at fault for the fall of His creation? Thats like blaming GM motors for a fatal car accident. If you see a smashed up Mercedes Benz [a picture of the world] alongside the road, who do you assume is the one at fault, the Mercedes Benz manufacturer [i.e. God]? or the driver [mankind] that crashed the car? The evil you are bothered by is cause of man's decision to kill, rape, steal, stray, etc.
It seems unfair to assume that a child of God shouldn't undergo suffering. Although i agree that the things you speak of are horrific events, suffering helps build character, helps us restrain from committing evil, help others who have suffered, empathy, builds awareness and preventions against such acts. Jesus suffered on the cross so that we wouldn't have to suffer for eternity if we choose to follow Him. I cannot imagine what those children went through but our time here is short compared to eternity. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent and the bible clearly states He will put an end to all evil.
Peter Kreeft said in his Handbook of Christian Apologetics, “...the very fact of our outrage at evil is a clue that we are in touch with a standard of goodness by which we judge this world as defective, as falling drastically short of the mark.” (p. 123)
Would you agree that evil is a departure from the way things ought to be? If there is a way things ought to be, there must be a designed plan (or designed standard) for the universe. So it would logically follow that there cannot be a way that the universe ought to be (a designed plan for the universe) without a designer of the universe.
HF2H,
"The bible does state that God created everything but evil is not a thing."
Actually, it clearly states that god created evil too. (Is. 45:7)
"Therefore evil is a departure from God's will."
I fail to see how an omni-max entity could have anything go against his will.
"But there is no choice if there's only one option."
This is a false dichotomy. There aren't only two choices.
"Im sure that you would agree, free will is a good thing."
Not if it leads to eternal suffering.
"God created us for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) But why jump to the conclusion that the Creator is at fault for the fall of His creation? Thats like blaming GM motors for a fatal car accident."
I certainly would if GM put something into their cars intentionally that would cause car accidents and knew ahead of time that car accidents would occur.
"It seems unfair to assume that a child of God shouldn't undergo suffering."
What? It's unfair unless you suffer? You've got a weird idea of fairness.
"Although i agree that the things you speak of are horrific events, suffering helps build character, helps us restrain from committing evil, help others who have suffered, empathy, builds awareness and preventions against such acts."
I'm sure raped children would appreciate your idea that being raped is actually good for them. Problem is that even if it were true that we need suffering to become better people, the uneven application of suffering leads me to believe that something is amiss in your idea. Also, if we need suffering to grow and learn, one has to wonder why it is that god made us that way. god doesn't get off the hook simply because we are the way we are, because he's responsible for creating creatures that are the way we are.
"I cannot imagine what those children went through but our time here is short compared to eternity."
Ah, so getting an ice cream after being raped makes it all better?
"God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent and the bible clearly states He will put an end to all evil."
Maybe, but for right now he seems content to sit around, watch it happen, and do nothing to stop it.
“...the very fact of our outrage at evil is a clue that we are in touch with a standard of goodness by which we judge this world as defective, as falling drastically short of the mark.”
So, the fact that we are outraged at evil is a clue that some good god exists that is not outraged and allows the evil to occur without lifting a finger to help, even though he knows it's happening, knows how to stop it, and has the power to stop it at no cost to himself? Why, that makes no sense at all.
"Would you agree that evil is a departure from the way things ought to be?"
It depends on your idea of "ought to be." I can tell that our ideas don't line up. I can make a case for "ought to be" based on social contracts and the idea of culture, both developed by humans and as part of our evolutionary history that is quite separate from god and quite unreliant on a god.
HoldFast2Him: I think we can all agree that such things as children beaten, raped, starved, etc. are very evil. But what is evil?
Simply put, I'd say evil is anything that causes unnecessary or undue suffering.
HoldFast2Him: You talk about the acts of evil people, evil acts, and the evilness of poverty...
And you don't?
HoldFast2Him: ... but are there evil molecules floating in the air? Or some black shadow that latches on to people causing them to do evil things? answer:No...
Straw men.
HoldFast2Him: The bible does state that God created everything but evil is not a thing.
The bible, as has been pointed out, categorically states that god created evil.
HoldFast2Him: Therefore evil is a departure from God's will.
So, you DON'T agree that "such things as children beaten... starved, etc. are very evil"? I mean, god wills children to be beaten and starved right in the bible.
HoldFast2Him: As i mentioned in a past post, God gives us a free will.
So, children are beaten and starved because they want to be?
HoldFast2Him: He gives us a choice to follow Him.
So you beat and starve children?
HoldFast2Him: Im sure that you would agree, free will is a good thing.
So, there are free will molecules floating around?
HoldFast2Him: God created us for good works.
Beating and starving children are good works?
HoldFast2Him: But why jump to the conclusion that the Creator is at fault for the fall of His creation?
Because he created it knowing it would fall, according to popular superstition.
HoldFast2Him: Thats like blaming GM motors for a fatal car accident.
If GM built the car knowing it would fail, they are responsible for its failure and any of its consequences.
HoldFast2Him: The evil you are bothered by is cause of man's decision to kill, rape, steal, stray, etc.
God commands people to kill, rape and steal. According to the judeo-christian superstition, anyway. Are you bothered by that?
HoldFast2Him: Although i agree that the things you speak of are horrific events, suffering helps build character...
So, causing suffering (evil) is a GOOD thing, because it builds character?
HoldFast2Him: ... helps us restrain from committing evil, help others who have suffered, empathy, builds awareness and preventions against such acts.
Christ, what a load of shit.
HoldFast2Him: Jesus suffered on the cross so that we wouldn't have to suffer for eternity if we choose to follow Him.
Christ, what an egomaniac.
HoldFast2Him: I cannot imagine what those children went through but our time here is short compared to eternity.
So, evil is okay because life is short compared to the eternal oblivion of death?
HoldFast2Him: God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent and the bible clearly states He will put an end to all evil.
Torturing people for eternity is evil. Can I assume you're contending that god is going to put an end to hell?
HoldFast2Him: Peter Kreeft said...
Peter Kreeft is full of shit.
HoldFast2Him: Would you agree that evil is a departure from the way things ought to be?
How ought things to be?
HoldFast2Him: If there is a way things ought to be, there must be a designed plan (or designed standard) for the universe.
Non sequitur.
But assuming for the sake of argument that there must be a designer, this is a pretty shitty design; never mind the fact that, in spite of your non sequitur, there's no discernible evidence for design, much less a designer.
HoldFast2Him: So it would logically follow that there cannot be a way that the universe ought to be (a designed plan for the universe) without a designer of the universe.
You haven't logically followed anything. You merely reworded the same non sequitur.
Ohh GTC you make me laugh. God Bless and have a wonderful day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c&feature=player_embedded
@HoldFast2Him:
If you god really existed
- and was as good as you say
- and knew what was happening
- and knew what Ratzinger & co. were doing
- and saw that they were doing it his name
- and had the brains of a shellfish
he would have struck them dead the first time they raped a child.
Lot of ifs?
Conclusio: JHWH does not exist.
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