Friday, 4 July 2008

Independence


Xians (from the US). Just remember while you are watching or setting off fireworks, while you are eating bbq, while you are waving your flag today and being patriotic and all that, that this country was founded by a bunch of deists on secular principles from the enlightenment. Remember that these people were not setting up a Xian government. When some of you strive to Xianize this country, you are in opposition of what this country was meant to be.

21 comments:

The Ranting Student said...

Amen.

Steven Bently said...
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Steven Bently said...

It's way too damned late to realize this fact, this country has had hundreds of years to revel in christianity and to propagate it's lies as truth.

They were showing paintings this morn. on TV in the white house, one with Pocahontas being converted to christianity and being baptized by Christopher Columbus, a white christian zealot, while her brother watched frowning upon her stupidity.

This is where xtianity originated in America, the white man brought over here with him his self-righteous religion.

This is mainly overlooked because the majority of Americans up until recently, have been of the white race.

This land was stolen from it's original owners and the Indians were murdered and run onto reservations, under the guise of a xtain god and his faithful xtain servants.

All of the paintings in the white house are of great white men put on pedestals for having come over here and set up their form of democracy, yet they still clung to their xtain beliefs.

When you celebrate July 4th, you are celebrating the killing and genocide of the original owners of this land, the indigenous peoples that had already discovered this land.

It is sweept under the rug because it makes the white man appear to be inhumane and a murderer, which is true and they (the white man) used the bible (gods divine will, Deuteronomy) to justify the killing of the indigenous peoples.

Columbus wasn't looking for America, he had no idea that the American continent was here, he thought that he had arrived at the West Indies, hence calling the indigenous peoples "Indians".

If he had been following a god's will he would have known there existed a new land between Spain and the West Indies.

Columbus was a fucking idiot, which goes along with the term Christian.

JayBird's Joint said...

"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports."

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

symbiontmusic said...

It's way too damned late to realize this fact, this country has had hundreds of years to revel in christianity and to propagate it's lies as truth.

What lies do you speak of, Christianities, or our Constitution, the Declaration of Independence

This is where xtianity originated in America, the white man brought over here with him his self-righteous religion.

What is it called when one Indian tribe murdered another? That could be self righteous, could it not?
Let me clarify that I am not a Christian, just trying to understand exactly where you are coming from. You are anti many things, it seems almost anti human existence.

-This is where xtianity originated in America, the white man brought over here with him his self-righteous religion.

You are aware that the "whiteman' did not create xtianity and that other races of people are involved in the spreading of xtianity long before the whiteman

-This is mainly overlooked because the majority of Americans up until recently, have been of the white race.

What are the majority of Americans now? You seem to have a "racial issue"?

-This land was stolen from it's original owners and the Indians were murdered and run onto reservations, under the guise of a xtain god and his faithful xtain servants

I am curious to know what race/group of people are acceptable to you? The Vikings conquered & killed,as well as the Egyptians, the Spaniards, English, Americans, Greeks, Romans, The Mores, the Asians, the Indians and so on. Hell, one could argue that quite a bit of land has been stolen all around the world.

-When you celebrate July 4th, you are celebrating the killing and genocide of the original owners of this land, the indigenous peoples that had already discovered this land.

When you say "you" that means me, and you are so very wrong about this. On July 4, 1776, we claimed our independence from Britain. These were white men claiming their independence from another white man.
I am very grateful for the freedom I have today as an American living in the USA. Yes, it is true that there are many Christians in this country and many white people, black people, deaf people, blind people,ect........That independence has allowed a great many things to happen, and a great many tragic things to happen.........And that is the road of life & evolution, of all species.


-It is sweept under the rug because it makes the white man appear to be inhumane and a murderer

What exactly is swept under the rug? It is known through out the USA that a great many Indians were slaughtered, it is also well known that a large number of Indians live on reservations. What exactly are you looking for or do you want to be said or admitted, or done? And what is with your reference so often to the "white" man. In your description of your self you call yourself a human, so wouldn't it be a human murderer?

-If he had been following a god's will he would have known there existed a new land between Spain and the West Indies.

Interesting comment: If he would have been following god's will....mmhh. I was not aware you new this so called god's will. Please enlighten me.

Steven Bently said...
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Steven Bently said...

You read all that, but for some reason you cannot figure out how religion arrived over here to America and what people here now call “Their Freedom”?

What I am saying is: that human beings lived here on this land for thousands of years without the need or have a use for a Bible or a church or a savior or make believe deities.

The lies of Christianity, many people claim that this country and the constitution was based upon Christian principles.

Nowhere did I say white man created Christianity, there was no Christianity over here until the white man brought his bible over here with him.

I'm saying that the white man used the bible to justify the killing of the indigenous people's it should be mostly be Indians living here, not white and black people.

Have you noticed any churches on every street block? No, I suppose not. There was not a single church built in America until the white man brought over here with him his religion.

So I suppose you enjoy seeing those self-righteous buildings all over America, I personally think they should all be torn down.

I'm saying the Indians independence was stolen away from them, along with "their' land.

But I would presume that you are white and you would find it hard to accept or agree with this fact.

Because the history books were written by white people and they conveniently left out the parts about the wholesale killing of the American Indians and stripped of their "Independence", but you can sit back now and wave your little 95 cent flag and tell everyone how great this country is, but if your country had been stolen from you and your family killed in front of you would not feel like you had any freedom.

It appears that all you can see is what is in front of you, apparently you cannot imagine what it was like to have your own country taken away from you and have churches built all over your land were people go and thank their imaginary god for the power to have allowed them to come over here and take this land.

I know you do not understand this, mainly because you do not want to.

I'll enlighten you, Columbus (a white man) claimed he was following the will of the bible god, but if he had been following the will of a god he would have been told or known of a land between Spain and the West Indies would he not?

Doesn't the bible god speak directly to Christians?

I think you're intentionally (for for some unknown reason) trying to pretend to sound dense.

BTW, did you create a new blog so I would not recognize who you are?

JayBird's Joint said...

"There was not a single church built in America until the white man brought over here with him his religion."

Indians had no religion of their own?
Do you hate them too?

"I'm saying the Indians independence was stolen away from them, along with "their' land."

The Indians attacked, killed, and also stole land from each other before we ever got here...do you hate those Indians also?
You seem to hate when people take the freedom and free land of others right?

"So I suppose you enjoy seeing those self-righteous buildings all over America, I personally think they should all be torn down."

Yet you desire to take religious freedom, and even land from others that was established, and protected here...what a ignorant hypocrite.

Your knowledge of Christopher Columbus is twisted and elementary... please stop using him as an example...it fails.

"Doesn't the bible god speak directly to Christians?"

I keep telling you, you cannot speak of spiritual things...you don't even have a basic understanding of the Bible.
The Bible speaks directly to sinners.

acidkoolaid said...

I can't wait until I receive my "independence" from the hell that is Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, who, if real, I will confess are as evil as Satan.

Incidentally, are there any other jesus "hate" groups/blogs that anyone would refer me to.

GCT said...

"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports."

Yes, especially when killing in the name of those religions, or converting the heathens through force and torture, right?

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Which is why religion has been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the moral positions we hold today, like being anti-slavery, pro-women's rights, pro-minority rights, not forbidding inter-racial marriage, etc. This is also why the Catholic Church shielded pedophiles I suppose.

Also, I would suggest that your second quote has been demonstrated as false. Not all atheists are violent killers and rapists, so obviously we don't need religion in order to be moral. Nor does a nation need religion in order to be moral as evidenced by the US and our secular law structure as well as the more enlightened secular countries of Europe such as Norway and Sweden.

symbiontmusic said...

Steven B.

Let's start with the end first:
-BTW, did you create a new blog so I would not recognize who you are?


You have got me on this one? You obviously think I am some one else, and I can assure you I am not the some one else you think I am, now that is a fact, but I will tell you this, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY PART OF CHRISTIANITY WHAT SO EVER. That being said, let's move on.


-You read all that, but for some reason you cannot figure out how religion arrived over here to America and what people here now call “Their Freedom”?

I have no problem with your statement of how Christianity arrived in the USA. I agree.

- and what people here now call “Their Freedom”?

So, what you are saying is that if a person believes in the democracy of the USA, because Christianity arrived here due to the "white man" that it is some how BS? Which would mean a believer in democracy is a Christian somehow? Let me define freedom, what it is for me. Oh, by the way I am a "white man". My bloodline is German. My parents are German, both their parents are German, my wife is German with a hint of Irish. I wanted to marry a German gal, so I did(freedom) I choose not to be a Christian with out any negative consequence(freedom), I choose to vote(freedom), I choose to respect my wife(freedom)I choose to live where I want to in the USA(freedom), I choose to listen and play whatever music I want to(freedom), I choose to hunt/own a gun(freedom) I choose all things in my life. How much money I want t make, all of it. I am responsible for the outcome of my life and all my choices. The fathers before me are responsible for that. Now, does that mean there is some Christianity involved in that, well sure, I am pretty positive some of the forefathers believed in Christ, so the hell what! The great thing is , I don't have to.
Did the Indians choose to be conquered, no, and there is not a damn thing I can do about that. That is how it went. What would you have the USA do about it? Or better yet, what would you have the Indians do about it? Let me say this, if this country were to somehow start to take my free will away, I will die defending my freedom. Our time will come, as do all societies of people, that is inevitable.

-What I am saying is: that human beings lived here on this land for thousands of years without the need or have a use for a Bible or a church or a savior or make believe deities.

You are incorrect. Indians had a spiritual system based on "make believe". You are , however correct in regards to the Bible.

-I'm saying that the white man used the bible to justify the killing of the indigenous people's it should be mostly be Indians living here, not white and black people.

What race are you Steven, and where do you live? Ya know, my father once said to me, "son, there can always be what should have been, but, unfortunately, there is only what it is". Rather simple but true. And what is it, well, it is man's need to go to explore, that will never change, and man will never stop killing.


-But I would presume that you are white and you would find it hard to accept or agree with this fact.

No, it is not, and your arrogance is your weakness.
What was done to the Indians, the Jews, the Blacks(slavery) and this list can go on for thousands of years........is a tragic
& horrible, but what is most important to me, is how I treat other human beings. That being said, let me say this, if a man wishes to bring harm to me or my family, I will do what is needed to protect myself & them. I may loose that battle though.

-apparently you cannot imagine what it was like to have your own country taken away from you

All I can do imagine what I would do, and my response above is the answer.

Have you had your country taken away from you?

-I'll enlighten you, Columbus (a white man) claimed he was following the will of the bible god, but if he had been following the will of a god he would have been told or known of a land between Spain and the West Indies would he not?

Doesn't the bible god speak directly to Christians?

I have read some things about C.C. and there are many mysteries surrounding him. I will agree that many people have done things based on the idea that a god told them to do it and that similar words probably came form C.C.'s mouth. Hell, Pres. Bush said something along those lines in regards to democracy.

I do not sense anything other than anger from you?

-I know you do not understand this, mainly because you do not want to.

Why would I even take the time if I did not "want to"?

So, how about answering some of my questions from above?

GCT said...

"I choose not to be a Christian with out any negative consequence(freedom)"

I would argue that this is not entirely so in this country. You are not truly free to be an atheist so long as your tax dollars go to support religious charities and proselytizing. You aren't truly free until you can run for office and win as an atheist. You aren't truly free while your money and your pledge of allegiance have references to god and pay homage to god. These are but a few examples.

symbiontmusic said...

You are not truly free to be an atheist so long as your tax dollars go to support religious charities and proselytizing.

-Based on this mode of thought, I am not "truly free" by any means in regards to taxes. My taxes pay for many, many things I do not agree with. I think that it is more important for me to voice my frustration with my tax dollars to help induce a change, that is where the true freedom is. Local, state & fed. gov't will always do things I do not agree with, the good news is, I have a say. And when the say is loud enough, it will change.

You aren't truly free until you can run for office and win as an atheist.

-I do not wish to run for office, meaning the presidency. We are a young country, let's talk in a 1,000 years. Change is best dealt with in baby steps.

What is "true freedom" for you GCT?

GCT said...

"Based on this mode of thought, I am not "truly free" by any means in regards to taxes. My taxes pay for many, many things I do not agree with."

The difference here is that your rights are being trampled by having your tax dollars go to support religion contra first amendment law. When others can flount the law in your face, you are not free because you have had your rights curtailed. I would also argue that policy decisions do not impact your freedom of decision, while support for religions makes the state a supporter of religion and does impact your freedom of religious choice.

"I do not wish to run for office, meaning the presidency. We are a young country, let's talk in a 1,000 years. Change is best dealt with in baby steps."

Simply because you don't wish to do so doesn't make it all right that you are being discriminated against. And, I disagree that we have to take baby steps, as that way leads to complacency and no change.

"What is "true freedom" for you GCT?"

For the purposes of this discussion I would say equal and full rights.

symbiontmusic said...

The difference here is that your rights are being trampled by having your tax dollars go to support religion contra first amendment law

-Please further explain. What rights are you speaking of exactly. Our gov't on all levels puts tax dollars into different ethnic groups in the US and abroad, one could consider this to be the same. Understand that I am not defending Christianity, just trying to understand your point better.

I would also argue that policy decisions do not impact your freedom of decision, while support for religions makes the state a supporter of religion and does impact your freedom of religious choice.

-I understand your comment here. Truth is, the state has always been a supporter of the belief in a god. I think that in this country, we have an event taking place, meaning that modern christianity is losing its appeal for many reasons. I think it started in the 60's. But I think it's important to consider that people like G. Washington, Thomas Jefferson ect.....that believed in a god,(so I think) probably believed that "our rights" meaning our constitution & Declaration of Independence was their god given right. Words for the times. I would argue that it is more important to notice where our society is failing in regards to our morals and commitment to family and a strong work ethic than the tax dollars with religion. I am not saying it is unimportant & should be swept under the rug, just that the details will work themselves out, in time, if the focus is correct. The truth is in my life, christians have never held me back, hurt my morals or my commitment to myself & family, neither has the tax thing you are speaking of, that i am aware of. I am not ignoring it, I am raising my family to believe in strong moral values, commitment and a solid work ethic, just as my parents did with me without church on Sundays.


For the purposes of this discussion I would say equal and full rights.

-That is a dream, and a good one, that is perfection, and I think the goal should be perfection, but I also understand it is impossible. There are more "rights" given to those who abuse them and that is not healthy for a strong society of people. Equality is impossible, but a fantastic goal. Our short history proves that.

Simply because you don't wish to do so doesn't make it all right that you are being discriminated against.

-Please explain how the gov't tax christian discrimination towards a non believer such as myself is affecting me?

GCT said...

"-Please further explain. What rights are you speaking of exactly. Our gov't on all levels puts tax dollars into different ethnic groups in the US and abroad, one could consider this to be the same. Understand that I am not defending Christianity, just trying to understand your point better."

My point is that there is a difference between the country going to a war that you don't agree with and the country propping up a religion that you don't agree with. The latter leads to you being a second class citizen while the former does not. For instance, if you don't agree with our current actions in Iraq (as I don't) it doesn't actually impinge on your ability to think as you wish to think. When the government supports one religion over any other or non-religion, then it does, because it puts a stamp on your thoughts as inferior in the public eye.

"Truth is, the state has always been a supporter of the belief in a god."

And it should not, as we all (theists and atheists alike) lose some of our rights when this happens.

"But I think it's important to consider that people like G. Washington, Thomas Jefferson ect.....that believed in a god,(so I think) probably believed that "our rights" meaning our constitution & Declaration of Independence was their god given right. Words for the times."

It's a little more complicated than that I fear. Jefferson originally did not include a reference to god in the Declaration of Independence, and there are no references to god in the Constitution beyond the date saying, "In the year of our lord," which was the custom for telling the date in those times. Most of the founders were freethinkers - either deist or atheist. There were some Xians in the mix of course, but they were all enamored of the Englightenment movement, which valued secularism and secular thought as well as a streak of humanism.

"I would argue that it is more important to notice where our society is failing in regards to our morals and commitment to family and a strong work ethic than the tax dollars with religion. I am not saying it is unimportant & should be swept under the rug, just that the details will work themselves out, in time, if the focus is correct."

My fear with this approach is that too many people identify morality with theism. They think that you can't be moral without believing in god, so the two go hand in hand. If you wish to push for us all to be more moral, most will take it in the opposite direction from freethought.

"The truth is in my life, christians have never held me back, hurt my morals or my commitment to myself & family, neither has the tax thing you are speaking of, that i am aware of."

I have not been greatly affected either, but that doesn't mean that the effects are not present. That they have not mattered to you as much doesn't mean that you are not being oppressed.

"-That is a dream, and a good one, that is perfection, and I think the goal should be perfection, but I also understand it is impossible."

It's saddening to read these words from you. We don't require perfection, just equal rights.

"There are more "rights" given to those who abuse them and that is not healthy for a strong society of people."

I don't understand this comment.

"Equality is impossible, but a fantastic goal. Our short history proves that."

On the contrary, we've seen blacks and women gain rights in our short history. Things are not on equal footing yet, but there has been advancement towards more freedom.

"-Please explain how the gov't tax christian discrimination towards a non believer such as myself is affecting me?"

By making you a second class citizen. You can not run for office and expect to win (major office I should note). Your tax dollars prop up ideologies that you do not agree with in violation of your rights, etc.

symbiontmusic said...

"My point is that there is a difference between the country going to a war that you don't agree with and the country propping up a religion that you don't agree with. The latter leads to you being a second class citizen while the former does not. For instance, if you don't agree with our current actions in Iraq (as I don't) it doesn't actually impinge on your ability to think as you wish to think. When the government supports one religion over any other or non-religion, then it does, because it puts a stamp on your thoughts as inferior in the public eye."

-I cannot agree with this statement. In my opinion, it depends on what is popular at the moment with the people of the US. For instance, one is considered in your words, "a second class citizen" because he/she is an atheist, meaning that because most gov't officials are christian and due to the fact that most Americans are also, I am inferior. Ok, I agree with you there, but the war in Iraq is very unpopular now, and i have witnessed this, when a person defends it, they are though of as inferior, the same with global warming issue. It's the herd effect. In my opinion, it's the same thing with christianity. It is the popular opinion to be christian right now in this society. But I am willing to bet that if a person lays down the truth like no other has and runs for political office,(president) and get get the financial backing, and flat out says that a belief in a god has nothing to due with what needs to be done in this country, they will win the vote, but it all has to line up just right, and that person needs to be very persuasive.


"It's saddening to read these words from you. We don't require perfection, just equal rights."

The truth can have that effect. Listen, I agree with the concept of equality, and believe we should strive for it, but I am from the school of hard knocks and a realist and we are human, and by our very nature, our ego, which is a survival instinct, the idea of true equality is perfect equality, and that is a goal to strive for everyday, but will never be a world reality. Are those sad words, sure, but they are true.

"It's a little more complicated than that I fear. Jefferson originally did not include a reference to god in the Declaration of Independence, and there are no references to god in the Constitution beyond the date saying, "In the year of our lord," which was the custom for telling the date in those times. Most of the founders were freethinkers - either deist or atheist. There were some Xians in the mix of course, but they were all enamored of the Englightenment movement, which valued secularism and secular thought as well as a streak of humanism."

I do not know this much on our forefathers, I will do some research, however, as it may be more complicated, the point still stands in that there are references to a god. If we are going to pick at the Bible(including myself) than we must do the same in the other direction.

"On the contrary, we've seen blacks and women gain rights in our short history. Things are not on equal footing yet, but there has been advancement towards more freedom."

You have repeated my statement with different words and more of them. ""Equality is impossible, but a fantastic goal. Our short history proves that."

"most will take it in the opposite direction from free thought."

I agree, people for the most part are sheep.

GCT said...

"Ok, I agree with you there, but the war in Iraq is very unpopular now, and i have witnessed this, when a person defends it, they are though of as inferior, the same with global warming issue."

But not as a second class citizen by the public or by the state - that's the key difference.

"But I am willing to bet that if a person lays down the truth like no other has and runs for political office,(president) and get get the financial backing, and flat out says that a belief in a god has nothing to due with what needs to be done in this country, they will win the vote, but it all has to line up just right, and that person needs to be very persuasive."

Right now that person would lose. Not only could they not obtain the financial backing (unless they provided it themselves) but they would be swift-boated by all sides. Remember what Romney did in defending his Mormonism in a speech not too long ago? He basically said, "At least I'm not an atheist. They are the one we should be hating."

"Listen, I agree with the concept of equality, and believe we should strive for it, but I am from the school of hard knocks and a realist and we are human, and by our very nature, our ego, which is a survival instinct, the idea of true equality is perfect equality, and that is a goal to strive for everyday, but will never be a world reality."

We can have equality under the law. Will all people have perfect equality? No, and I'm not arguing for that. I'm arguing for fairness and equality in our laws.

"I do not know this much on our forefathers, I will do some research, however, as it may be more complicated, the point still stands in that there are references to a god."

The references to god in the Declaration (a non-binding document on this country) were placed in there in order to supplicate the non-Enlightened masses of the country that would not go along with it otherwise. Consider that the Constitution was derided as being an atheist document for a long time as well.

"If we are going to pick at the Bible(including myself) than we must do the same in the other direction."

I don't understand this comment. I have not picked at the documents our country was founded on, I have presented what was the reality of the situation to the best of my knowledge.

"You have repeated my statement with different words and more of them."

I have done no such thing. Nowhere did I say that we could not achieve equality, that it was not possible, as you did. I merely stated that I see a progression towards more freedom and equality.

"I agree, people for the most part are sheep."

And, sadly enough, many are happy with that state of affairs, both those leading the sheep and those being led.

symbiontmusic said...

"I'm arguing for fairness and equality in our laws."

-So what laws do we have that treat an atheist different than a Christian?

"But not as a second class citizen by the public or by the state - that's the key difference."

I believe that this is a "feeling" you have. Have you run for political office? Will you? I will say this, if you ever do, and your whole point is in the direction of removing all things Christian, you will not go very far. People still follow by example, example meaning actions. I witness it everyday in my life. If a man lives a good, honest, committed life,and does good for our society and can turn that into something larger with politics, it will not go unnoticed. Now, if we are going to put a time line on it, that is a different story.

"I don't understand this comment. I have not picked at the documents our country was founded on, I have presented what was the reality of the situation to the best of my knowledge."
"The references to god in the Declaration (a non-binding document on this country) were placed in there in order to supplicate the non-Enlightened masses of the country that would not go along with it otherwise. Consider that the Constitution was derided as being an atheist document for a long time as well."

-My point is that the references are there. We can argue until we are blue in the face about why they are there, it doesn't really matter.....they are there. If they were put there to get a bunch of people to go along with it, well, one could argue that that is being deceptive, or being smart. But since god is referenced, I do not think removing them is going to happen. What I am saying in regards to "picking" is that if we are going to go over the Bible with a fine tooth comb, well, we must do the same with all things. And one cannot deny the reference to a god in our founding documents. We can debate why we think they were put there, but, I was not present for any of those conversations.

""On the contrary, we've seen blacks and women gain rights in our short history. Things are not on equal footing yet, but there has been advancement towards more freedom."

I do apologize, I missed the "yet". So I should assume that you believe one day, we will all have equal rights? You stated that you want that in our laws, how is it not already in our laws? The blacks & women, from my understanding, have the same rights by law that white men have.

All right, I am done from along day at the shop. Have a great weekend GCT and we shall talk some more.

GCT said...

"-So what laws do we have that treat an atheist different than a Christian?"

Those that allow tax dollars to go to churches to proselytize for starters. Those that allow "In god we trust" to be printed on our money for another. Of course, you've got a point in that these are technically against the law, so it's the misapplication of the law that is at fault here.

"I believe that this is a "feeling" you have. Have you run for political office? Will you? I will say this, if you ever do, and your whole point is in the direction of removing all things Christian, you will not go very far."

That doesn't even have to be your platform. There was a study done not too long ago (Gallop Poll or Pew maybe) that showed that a large majority of people would not vote for an atheist no matter what. Not only that, but you'd never even get your foot in the door in either of the political parties right now (although the Dems would be more open to it).

And, no, it's not a feeling, it's a fact. When the government establishes that one religion is better than others, or that theism is better than atheism, then the de facto conclusion is that atheists are second class citizens.

"-My point is that the references are there. We can argue until we are blue in the face about why they are there, it doesn't really matter.....they are there."

Do you really mean to say that the reasons they are there do not matter? I think they matter greatly, because those reasons are supportive to my argument.

"What I am saying in regards to "picking" is that if we are going to go over the Bible with a fine tooth comb, well, we must do the same with all things. And one cannot deny the reference to a god in our founding documents."

And nowhere have I done that. I explicitly stated those things were there and why. But, even if the references are there, that doesn't mean that they are supportive of your arguments, because they plainly are not. The Constitution only has the one reference, it is the only document of the two that has any bearing on the laws of our country, and it explicitly states that we have freedom of religion (as well as stating that no religious test shall be required of anyone in any public capacity (paraphrased).

"We can debate why we think they were put there, but, I was not present for any of those conversations."

We don't have to debate when we can look at the source material. I suggest you check out the Freedom From Religion Foundation (I think it is FFRF.com) and also Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I believe that both sites have a compendium of information of this topic.

"I do apologize, I missed the "yet". So I should assume that you believe one day, we will all have equal rights?"

Someday I hope to have that, yes, and I think we need to fight for it (not violently of course).

"You stated that you want that in our laws, how is it not already in our laws? The blacks & women, from my understanding, have the same rights by law that white men have."

That's true to an extent, so good point. It is a misapplication of the law mostly that I take issue with. Upon further reflection, however, I could make the argument that case law evolves, and law is made from the meaning given to the written words, so in that sense it would be that the law does not equally protect all.

"All right, I am done from along day at the shop. Have a great weekend GCT and we shall talk some more."

Thank you for the civil and well thought out discussion. It's a pleasure to have you on this blog.

symbiontmusic said...

"And, no, it's not a feeling, it's a fact. When the government establishes that one religion is better than others, or that theism is better than atheism, then the de facto conclusion is that atheists are second class citizens."

-I agree. I have never really looked at it that way. Good point. I feel very unaffected by xianity at this point in my life and due to that, there are things I do not pay attention to, like the saying on the money.


"And nowhere have I done that. I explicitly stated those things were there and why. But, even if the references are there, that doesn't mean that they are supportive of your arguments, because they plainly are not."

-I am not sure what my argument is anymore!LOL. No , the point I am really trying to make, and not doing a very good job of, is that I understand peoples need to believe in something, and due to many, many reasons,(xianity being a very large part of that) people are taught not to believe in themselves and the good common sense laws that govern humanity. I do not agree with that philosophy, but I do, honestly worry about how a large group of people(xians) would re-act, at first to the carpet being pulled right out from under their feet. Xianity is a dangerous thing, so I feel. I wonder alot about how society handled when the Catholic church was "called out". I do worry about a large portion of people becoming criminals, so to speak, due to their already obvious need to believe in something fictional. Maybe we could slowly get them to believe in Pooh Bear!!LOL. He is pretty non threatening!!LOL

"Thank you for the civil and well thought out discussion. It's a pleasure to have you on this blog"

-Thank you, the feeling is mutual.