Wednesday, 3 September 2008

Drowning?


Let's say that you and I are on a boat and I push you off the boat and into the water. Not expecting it, you start to drown. I finally decide to throw you a life preserver and pull you back on board the boat. Am I a hero? Is this a good action? Should you thank me for saving you? I think most people would recognize that my actions were not good. I should not have thrown you into the water and put you in that dangerous situation. Throwing in the life preserver was not so much a good act as an act that fulfilled my moral obligation to you for putting you in that position to begin with. Are we all on the same page? Good.

Now, suppose that we change it up slightly. Let's say that god creates you in such a way that you are doomed for hell. This is analogous to him pushing you into the water and you drowning. Now, god sacrifices Jesus in order to save you, which is analogous to throwing you a life preserver. As above, we can see that god's actions are not good. Putting you in a situation where you are in need of saving just so that he can save you is not a good action or a moral action. In fact, god is morally obligated to save us for putting us in the position where we are bound for hell, and he doesn't even do that for the majority of people if the Bible is to be believed. So, why is it that apologists claim that god is good and moral?

7 comments:

Clint said...

One might think that it is more pitiable to devote one's whole blog to disproving and denigrating those whom he thinks are deluded.

Anonymous said...

Actually, I think it is more "pitiable" that one is so narrow-minded that they are unaware that it is quite common-place that people using many different media do so to espouse their own beleifs. In fact, doesn't your own blog, clint, devote itself to the proclamtion of jesus. Here again, clint's is just another example of pontificating christian arrogance.

GCT said...

I'll note that Clint did not use an actual argument or address the argument in the OP, instead deciding to be smug and condescending.

rich said...

I can see where you are coming from. You arguement is pretty solid until you get to the fact that God did not create us to send us to Hell. Its pretty obvious and "well known" that the fall was due to the fallen angel or the "devil" or "satan". Man was not created for a fall, but was fell due to the "devil" or "satan" or whatever you wish to call him. From that alone your whole post is null. Isnt it? Let me know.

GCT said...

No, Rich, the argument is not nullified.

Not only is it not "well known" that the fall was due to Satan, but you can't so easily displace the guilt that god bears for that turn of events. The way that god created us is sinful by nature, there is no way around that. Nothing can transpire in this universe without it being part of god's will if god is indeed omni-max. This is a logical necessity. Plus, Xians must believe that the fall was necessary so that Jesus could arrive on the scene. Therefore, god planned the fall from the start. Even if god did not plan the fall, he certainly saw it coming, thus he still bears responsibility for allowing us to enter the water and drown.

Knowing that we would go to hell beforehand (if he is omni-max then he had to know that) and creating us anyway, the inescapable conclusion is that god did create us to send us to hell.

Kyle said...

Hmm...

I can see why this is a bit of a pickle. After reading the post I would have said what rich said.

In regards to your post, GTC, I can't argue with your logic, but the only way that your argument stands is if you believe in fate.

Let me put it this way: you describe an omni-max god who knows everything that is ever going to happen, and because it is the ONLY way that it could happen - ie people going to hell, dying, pretty much everything bad that happens - that god is inheritly cruel and evil (well, not good) for allowing such things to happen. This idea is a bit conflicting, however, because it DOESN'T allow for the possibility of free will. People may think that what they're doing is whatever they want to do, but in said reality there was no other way it could have been done.

Now, if you DO believe in free will, it shakes things up a little. It is my personal belief that we 'gained' free will at the fall, whether that was a good or bad thing is up to you(Could you explain a bit more how it wasn't due to satan?). In this life we DO have free will, and God is STILL omni-max. Now what you might be tempted to say is that if God knew every possible happening, he must be even MORE cruel for allowing all the bad that did happen, and even COULD have happened. But here's the clincher: The minute we gained free will, the ability to do whatever we want, we became disconnected from the will of God. He was no longer in control of what we did.

I'm not yet sure what to say about God planning the fall and Jesus' sacrifice from before creation, so you can rant on about that if you like. All I'm saying is this: it is OUR fault that we sin and go to hell, not his. The reason Jesus came was to give us a way back to him. God weeps for every last person who dies in disbelief.

GCT said...

kyle,
"In regards to your post, GTC, I can't argue with your logic, but the only way that your argument stands is if you believe in fate."

The logic of the argument does not rest on what one believes.

"This idea is a bit conflicting, however, because it DOESN'T allow for the possibility of free will."

The idea of free will is inherently conflicting with the idea of an omni-max deity. But, let's say that it isn't. god would still know that we would be drowning before we exercised our free will, and still placed us there, so god is still evil.

"It is my personal belief that we 'gained' free will at the fall, whether that was a good or bad thing is up to you(Could you explain a bit more how it wasn't due to satan?)."

They gained it at the fall? That's one I had not heard yet and I wonder if you've thought it all the way through. If they did not freely choose to eat the apple and cause the fall, then the blame is placed squarely on god without any room for wiggling.

And, even if Satan did tempt them, god certainly knew that would happen and allowed it to happen, so god still bears responsibility.

"In this life we DO have free will, and God is STILL omni-max."

This is not logically possible. If god is omni-max, then everything in this universe happens according to god's will/plan in a determined fashion by logical necessity.

"But here's the clincher: The minute we gained free will, the ability to do whatever we want, we became disconnected from the will of God. "

Even if that were true, god had foreknowledge that people would go to hell and allowed it to happen. This is evil.

"...so you can rant on about that if you like."

Why do you describe logical arguments as rants?

"All I'm saying is this: it is OUR fault that we sin and go to hell, not his."

Not logically possible with an omni-max god for the reasons stated above. Besides that, god is the one that set up the rules and the punishments and decided to hold us to impossible standards. In short, god has put us in the water. For you to assert that it is our fault that we are in the water is to engage in blaming the victim.

"The reason Jesus came was to give us a way back to him."

As I stated, god throwing a life preserver to save people from a predicament that he placed them in is neither noble or good. For anyone to go to hell because of god's actions is a gross misjustice and immoral action on god's part.

"God weeps for every last person who dies in disbelief."

If god wishes for no one to go to hell, then no one would go to hell. If people do go to hell, then it is because god has willed it. If god is doing something to himself that grieves himself, then he's pretty incompetent and/or stupid. This also directly contradicts the idea that god is perfect.