Thursday, 18 December 2008

My Way or the Highway


If you read John 16:4, it clearly states that the only way that one can attain heaven is through Jesus Christ. We can debate as to whether this means that one must follow Jesus, believe in Jesus, etc, but what we can't debate is that the Bible states that one must go through Jesus. So, how does one do that if one has never heard of Jesus? In our modern world, it is difficult to find people who don't learn something about Jesus or at least hear of this idea of Jesus. But, what about people who lived before the age of mass communication? Well, those people are bound for hell, simply for being ignorant of Xianity. I think we can all agree that this is unjust and immoral.

What about children who are too young to believe in anything? Well, then those children are bound for hell as well. I think we can agree that this is unjust and immoral as well.

Some Xians might object that surely a good god would not do such things, and would allow those people to go to heaven. But, this would demonstrate an unjust attitude as well, as those people would be held to different standards than those of us who have heard of this Jesus fellow. Either way, it is god who must act unjustly and immorally.

19 comments:

newbie atheist said...

And yet, I think the rule is that those souls who were never actually born (many times a developing fetus will spontaneously abort) DO go straight to heaven. I mean, WTF?

Kold_Kadavr_flatliner said...

No, my friend. They were simply sent to Hades, to be either condemned or saved when Christ the King appeared. Don't assume, please, for guessing leads to death of thy soul. Follow our blog and write me something.

Got bawls? Most of U.S. don’t. Read the signs of the times (and between the lines) and know Almighty God’s a concrete, kick-ass reality. I’m proof! GOD BLESSA YOUSE -Fr. Sarducci, SNL

God bless you, my friend, and may the Creator of the Cosmos bestow upon you discernment and wisdom this CHRIST-mass season.

Steven Bently said...

Theresa onla onea waya intoa heavena, Invita Jesusa intoa youse hearta!

Kinda like Cupid shot an arrow through your heart, same idea I'm sure.

I have the truth, Follow my blog, damn you heathen!

Got Balls? lol

Anonymous said...

wow man, just stumbled onto your blog... talk about pure, unrational anger! It makes me wonder if you are angry at God Himself or at some hypocrite from your past that wronged you. There is a difference you know? If you have problems with God, so be it, but be intellectually honest enough to say that they are emotion based and not logic based objections. I am sorry you have been offended by some jerk, but don't lay your hatred at the doorstep of reason.

TigerHunter said...

Anon:

You seem to know a lot about GCT for someone who doesn't actually know anything about him. You're apparently so close minded that you assume anyone who disagrees with you is being irrational, and could not possibly have simply rejected your opinion out of rational thought.

GCT said...

"talk about pure, unrational anger!"

Anger? That's just you showing your preconceptions.

"It makes me wonder if you are angry at God Himself or at some hypocrite from your past that wronged you."

I literally can't be angry at god since god is simply a literary figure. I'm not angry at some hypocrite either, although I do dislike it when fundies try to take away my rights.

"If you have problems with God, so be it, but be intellectually honest enough to say that they are emotion based and not logic based objections."

If you read the blog, you'll note that I make a lot of reason and logic based arguments against god. What are you rational, reasonable, logical arguments for god?

GCT said...

Can someone figure out if Kold_Kadavr_flatliner is for real? Whether he is or not, he is an excellent example of Poe's Law in action.

Steven Bently said...

anony, "If you have problems with God, so be it, but be intellectually honest enough to say that they are emotion based and not logic based objections....
"but don't lay your hatred at the doorstep of reason."

Lets see, your reasoning is based upon ancient oral tradition scripture.

So god created the universe in just six days, yet Adam and Eve never wrote one word in the bible, the very first humans god supposedly created, the very first people whom would have had first hand knowledge of this god, yet not one word written by them....very logical.

Then we have the flood because men's "hearts were continually wicked," so god elects a 600 year old drunkard to build a yacht to hold all the animals...very reasonable.

Then some four thousand years later, god decides he can no longer save wicked souls, he sends his only "begotten son" to be murdered so that his son (which is him(god)could start to save souls....very rational.

You're right anony, it is us non-believers that are in fault based upon our emotions and not logic.[/sarcasm]

Anonymous said...

"yet Adam and Eve never wrote one word in the bible"

Come on Steven, don't you know that Adam and Eve were created as complete dumbasses. I mean, if they preceded cavemen who only knew how to draw pictures and grunt, Adam and Eve were probably doing well when they figured out that wiping their asses with a leave or grass was better than using their hands.

Steven Bently said...

Adam and Eve preceded cavemen?

Adam's job was to name all the animals, who wrote down all the animals names?

How did moses suddenly learn to write things down way past the days of creation?

You were kidding me right?

Anonymous said...

"Adam's job was to name all the animals, who wrote down all the animals names?"

Gosh Steven, did you turn xtian on us? Is that one part of the bible that you actually believe? So was there a dark ages between Adam and Eve and cavemen (sorry, I really never took the time to learn my ages and evolutionary stages) so that people went from being created with verbal language to drawings?

My guess is that whoever first evolved into verbal communication actually named the animals in their region and then different cultures/peoples began naming creatures.

Steven Bently said...

"My guess is that whoever first evolved into verbal communication actually named the animals in their region and then different cultures/peoples began naming creatures."

Exactly...you're guessing and nothing more!

Anonymous said...

"Exactly...you're guessing and nothing more!"

I see. As opposed to the scientifically proven fact that Adam and Eve named them.

anw2484@yahoo.com said...

After watching your video and reading a few of your blogs, I felt like I needed to comment. I do not know you and I am not writing this to judge you. It breaks my heart that you feel the way you do about Jesus. And I am sorry for the condemning comments that other Christians have made towards you. I know that their intention was to see you come to know Christ, but in reality they have pushed you further away. I hope that when you read this, if you read this, that you read it knowing that I am writing you out of concern for you and others who believe as you do.

I hope that this makes some kind of sense... I'm going to explain it the best I can. God is sovereign and God is holy. Sovereign means (I know you know but hang with me here) having supreme authority over. He has supreme authority over us because he created us. Plain and simple on that one. Exodus 33:19 says..."And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Again, he reserves the right to do with us what He wants because He created us.

Holy means to be set apart. God is set apart from us because He is perfect and without sin. He can not be in the presence of sin. So even though he loves us, if we are sinful (which we are... all of us), how can we spend eternity in Heaven with him? How can we expect Him to be untrue to Himself?

The baby and the people who have never heard of God thing is a tough question... it is one I often think about myself. Do I personally think that all babies and all people who have never heard of Jesus go to Hell? No. Why? I can't fully explain it.... but I have faith that in His sovereignty, God does what is good and what is right. He can't do anything other than that. Again... it is who He is. He is good. He is right. He can't be untrue to Himself, because being untrue to Himself would make him a liar. And He is holy and perfect so that just doesn't fit!

Also, please do not think that God delights in sending people to Hell. He grieves over sin. He would like nothing more than to see EVERYONE come to know Him. But some people chose otherwise. He can't be in the presence of sin... so what can He do? He gives us a choice and lets us make that decision: be freed from sin, are be enslaved to it.

One last thing... I read in another one of your blogs that you don't understand how a God who knows everything can regret what he has done. The bible does use that word several times yes... but remember that the English translation of the Bible often leaves things unexplained or misinterpreted. The Hebrew definition of the word nacham (translated in most versions to regret) often means to feel grief over or to be moved to pity. God made the right decision. But He still grieves over the outcomes that come about because of our sin.

I don't know if ANY of that made sense to you. I know I don't know you... but I am praying for you. God loves you. He does not want to you to spend eternity in Hell. He wants you to spend eternity with Him. And more than that... He wants you to live a life full of joy and blessing while you are here on earth. He can grant you peace beyond all understanding. I am praying for God to reveal Himself and His son Jesus Christ to you in a very real way.

Amber

GCT said...

Amber,
"It breaks my heart that you feel the way you do about Jesus."

It saddens me as well that you feel the way you do about Jesus.

"And I am sorry for the condemning comments that other Christians have made towards you. I know that their intention was to see you come to know Christ, but in reality they have pushed you further away."

Actually, it is the utter lack of evidence and reason that "push" me away from god belief.

"He has supreme authority over us because he created us."

I reject this line of thinking as it is immoral and inhuman.

"Again, he reserves the right to do with us what He wants because He created us. "

This is simply not so. By creating us, god would have actually taken on a moral responsibility towards us. What you are describing is a system whereby we are merely pawns and playthings for some god that can shape us as he wishes, etc. We don't feel that parents have the right to do what they want to their children, because parents take on a moral responsibility when they bring a child into the world.

"Holy means to be set apart."

Not to be contrary, but that is not what it means.

"God is set apart from us because He is perfect and without sin. He can not be in the presence of sin."

There goes the claim of god's omnipresence.

"Do I personally think that all babies and all people who have never heard of Jesus go to Hell? No. Why? I can't fully explain it.... but I have faith that in His sovereignty, God does what is good and what is right."

And, this is a problem. When faced with uncertainty, you automatically assume that god is right and good. You can't make that assumption.

"He can't be untrue to Himself, because being untrue to Himself would make him a liar."

And, what if god was lying when he said that he can't lie? (He never actually says he can't lie, does he?)

"Also, please do not think that God delights in sending people to Hell."

I fail to see how a supposedly perfect being could ever have something happen that he didn't desire.

"The Hebrew definition of the word nacham (translated in most versions to regret) often means to feel grief over or to be moved to pity. God made the right decision. But He still grieves over the outcomes that come about because of our sin."

Even if this is so, it doesn't change the scope of the argument. If god feels grief over his decisions, then he has failed, since he has the ability to do literally anything, including find a solution that doesn't cause him or us grief.

"I don't know if ANY of that made sense to you."

Amber, I've heard this apologetic tract many times, and it's simply not very compelling. You make a lot of assumptions, ones that can not be supported. If god desires that no one go to hell, then why create it or send people there? Why does a loving god that is all powerful need to commit genocide? How can we say that god is good and then excuse all the horrendous acts that god commits? Will you fall back on the "god is mysterious" defense? If you wish to claim that we can't convict god because he knows more than us, well then we can't claim to have enough knowledge to say he is good.

So, to sum up, you can't simply make all these claims that are contrary to whatever information we do have and then ignore said information.

Blake said...

Blake,

Just had a question:

Why do you hate someone whom you do not even believe exists?

Do you believe He exists?
If not then let me attempt to express my thoughts. I’m no intellectual so this is coming from a simple man’s perspective. Please don’t hold it against me. I will simply address the key for your finding of the truth.

In short:
God's existence is not in any way reliant upon the faith of man.
God has always existed and always will exist.
Jesus is alive.
Jesus is God.

Please search deep within the infinite recesses of your soul to find the ears to hear the voice of God crying out to you from the mouth of a man.

An intellectual’s view says, God’s existence is utterly impossible to prove. It's also impossible for me to exist for that matter.

See Blake is only a figment of your imagination. I don’t exist because you have never seen me, never touched me, or never heard me. The only thing that exists about me is what I am writing to you right now. And who’s to say this isn’t a computer glitch and some how a message was sent and these letters aligned themselves with one another. I may be another person posing at this name in order to not reveal who I really am. Or I may actually be Blake writing to you while my stomach growls as I sit behind the computer desk in my room. There are entirely too many assumptions that you are making about me. The only way for me to prove myself to you is through the testimony of another. My friend Amber evidently doesn’t exist either. But I disproved her inexistence because I know her and give evidence of her existence simply by my words and testimony. But that is still not irrefutable information. Irrefutable would be every person on the face of the earth saying to you that they know and have seen, and have heard Amber and believe that she is real. I must rephrase. To prove my existence, I must have every person on the face of the earth prove me.

Why do you listen more to your own reason than to myself and the countless numbers of those who testify to the existence of the one true and living God?

You have stated that you do not believe in something that is improvable (though contradictory you hate Jesus), but you will testify of a hatred that is inside of you for God whom you say does not exist.

I'm not surprised if you continue to hate Him. Every who doesn’t believe in Jesus is doing the exact same thing your doing right now. Before placing their faith in Jesus every human hates Him and would never want to follow Him. They look and search for God like a robber searches for a police officer. It just doesn’t happen. I too did the exact thing. I suppressed the truth with my unbelief and hated God. I never would have came to know Jesus if He had not revealed Himself to me through the preaching of a man. As I began to see myself for who I really was (a rebel, a retch, a worm, a sinner), I knew that I needed salvation but couldn’t save myself. What an awful, but wonderful place to be. In that moment and in that state, Jesus broke through all the hatred and told me of His love for me in spite of all my previous feelings toward Him. He gave me the most precious of all gifts—Faith. All I can and will do is cling to Jesus and His saving work on the cross.

My friend I know that your mind says no to the existence of God. But I must ask.

Even though your heart is filled with hate… what does it say about the existence of Jesus?

And If Jesus is Lord of All then you need Him more than your next breath.

My friend, I love you. Know that I’m sincerely praying for you, that God would reveal Himself to you and grant you faith to be saved. May God bless you and give you the greatest gift that anyone could ever receive—Himself.

In Christ,

Blake

Blake said...

The truth shall set you free.

ROMANS 1:18-2:8 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

ROMANS 10:8-13 "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

EPHESIANS 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

GCT said...

Blake,
"Why do you hate someone whom you do not even believe exists? "

It's impossible to actually hate someone you don't believe exists. The blog title is hyperbole.

"Do you believe He exists?"

No.

"An intellectual’s view says, God’s existence is utterly impossible to prove. It's also impossible for me to exist for that matter."

Wrong on both counts. For the first, it depends on what you mean by "god" and for the second it's a logical contradiction for an existing entity to claim that it is impossible for that entity to exist.

"I don’t exist because you have never seen me, never touched me, or never heard me. The only thing that exists about me is what I am writing to you right now."

Which is evidence of your existence, along with your IP address, etc. Where is the similar evidence for god?

"And who’s to say this isn’t a computer glitch and some how a message was sent and these letters aligned themselves with one another."

Lack of evidence.

"I may be another person posing at this name in order to not reveal who I really am."

And this helps your argument how?

"There are entirely too many assumptions that you are making about me."

What assumptions am I making?

"The only way for me to prove myself to you is through the testimony of another."

I'm a little bit flabbergasted that you just made that statement, because it is so absurd that I'm having trouble thinking up a response that isn't snarky or condescending. Let me simply say this: testimony is an inherently unreliable method of producing evidence, and there are many more ways that are much more reliable.

"My friend Amber evidently doesn’t exist either. But I disproved her inexistence because I know her and give evidence of her existence simply by my words and testimony."

No, you don't. Amber may be a lie you are telling or a made-up imaginary friend or some code word in your mind for something else entirely. All I have right now is your assertion that someone named "Amber" exists. It's not proof of anything.

"Irrefutable would be every person on the face of the earth saying to you that they know and have seen, and have heard Amber and believe that she is real."

Wrong again. Even if every single person attested to the existence of this "Amber" (sans Amber I assume) that would not mean that she exists for the reasons above.

"Why do you listen more to your own reason than to myself and the countless numbers of those who testify to the existence of the one true and living God?"

Lack of evidence for said god.

Simply because you believe and others believe doesn't mean your god exists. There are many others that believe in other gods. Using your criteria, if they assert to you that their god exists, you must believe that that god does indeed exist. I don't suppose you believe in Yahweh and Allah, not to mention Thor, Zeus, Baal, Vishnu, FSM, etc.

"You have stated that you do not believe in something that is improvable (though contradictory you hate Jesus), but you will testify of a hatred that is inside of you for God whom you say does not exist."

Again, the title is hyperbole.

"Before placing their faith in Jesus every human hates Him and would never want to follow Him."

Do you honestly think that all people on the planet secretly believe in Jesus and hate him, so they publicly profess to believe in other gods or no god at all? What arrogance.

"I too did the exact thing. I suppressed the truth with my unbelief and hated God."

Another "atheist" turned born-again?

GCT said...

Blake,

"I never would have came to know Jesus if He had not revealed Himself to me through the preaching of a man."

And, if he hadn't and you had continued to disbelieve, do you think you would be headed for hell after death? So, it was the actions of Jesus revealing himself that saved you, correct? Yet, Jesus does not do this for everyone, so therefore Jesus must desire that some people endure eternal torment in hell. But, Jesus is supposed to be all-loving, correct? How does your head not explode when faced with such a glaring contradiction?

"As I began to see myself for who I really was (a rebel, a retch, a worm, a sinner), I knew that I needed salvation but couldn’t save myself."

What a load of anti-human crap. Do you really think that all humans are worms and retches? Don't you realize how hateful that is and how hateful a god would have to be to create beings such as that and/or need to convince us of such before helping?

"What an awful, but wonderful place to be. In that moment and in that state, Jesus broke through all the hatred and told me of His love for me in spite of all my previous feelings toward Him."

Love isn't demanding that someone feel retched and dejected before gaining some reward and holding the threat of hell over them in the meantime. That's sadism and extortion.

"Even though your heart is filled with hate… what does it say about the existence of Jesus? "

My heart is not filled with hate, but evidently your heart is - hatred of yourself and hatred of your fellow man. And, if I have to be hateful in order to believe in Jesus, then count me out.

"And If Jesus is Lord of All then you need Him more than your next breath. "

Why do I need a tyrant to lord over me?