In the comments, there's been quite a bit of talk about abortion lately. Specifically, for Xians that believe in an age of accountability (not a Biblical idea) it's inconsistent to be against abortion. Should we not rejoice at every soul that is saved and gets to go to heaven? That's exactly what they must believe an abortion does. If it is indeed a sin for someone to kill another, even if that murder sends the deceased to heaven (which BTW, is also inconsistent), then if one person decides to sacrifice her own life in order to help as many souls go to heaven as possible, shouldn't we thank that person?
In fact, abortion allows the soul to go to heaven without the messy problems of life and sin - without even the possibility of becoming corrupt and going to hell. The souls that are sent directly to heaven have been done a favor! They never have to suffer from some virus or disease, they never will have to experience hunger, they'll never be tortured as a supposed enemy combatant. In fact, if they were going to be born to the wrong religion, they never have to endure believing in the wrong god(s).
But, theists may argue that they don't get to experience the joys of this life, right? So what. They joy they experience is in heaven, which according to Xian theology far outstrips the fleeting joys of this life. It is far better to be in heaven than here on Earth, even for those living the Life of Reilly here.
And, for those Xians that don't believe in the age of accountability, don't think you guys are off the hook. I can say that it's a more Biblical stance, and that it's more consistent with opposing abortion, but it's not at all consistent with the idea of a just and loving god. It ends up being a trade of consistency in one area for inconsistency in another. (Note, the age of accountability group also runs afoul of the idea of a just and loving god, just in a different way.)
Just one more inconsistency from Xianity.
48 comments:
*yawn*
I'm glad that you can be so nonchalant about the fact that your religion is riddled with inconsistency.
I'm sad that you can be so nonchalant about the fact that your soul is currently bound for Hell.
Is it a fact? Let's see your supporting evidence and data.
I got my ticket right here. God's bureaucracy leaves something to be desired. The ticket is return.
Hey, GCT, when we get to hell, wanna room together?
I'll bring the beer.
From the impression I get from the christians who comment on this site (also known as "Anonymous"), the company in hell will be wayyyy better than the company in heaven!
Better company that's screaming in eternal torment an arms length away from you won't make much difference. I would wager you won't even know they are nearby.
Anonymous,
Do you think you'll still be sad for us when you are in heaven and we are not?
Sadness does not exist in Heaven. I'm sad for you now. I love you.
We all need a li'l anonymous lovin'
So anonymous, do you think you will simply forget about all the people in hell when you get to heaven so that you won't be sad about them or will you be happy that they are in hell?
What a consortium of sick fucks that live in heaven who sit and laugh at the people they loved in life as they burn in hell. They have to be laughing because sadness, as our anon friend pointed out, can't exist in heaven. Heaven, a place where malicious fucks laugh about torture.
Heh, I'd venture to wager that from a biblical standpoint the existence of Hell as an eternal place is unfounded. Heck, the word doesn't appear in the greek, so yay.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16878240/What-Does-The-Bible-Say-About-Hell
Thanks for the link, Anon. Now all you have to do is convince all of the people who believe (with biblical backing) that:
*the flames aren't literal
*the torment of individuals isn't eternal
*every thing else that the linked page claimed, where others have come to different if not opposite conclusions.
I mean, really, if you chaps can't even agree about just how horribly horrible hell is, then what is the point of Jesus' eternal love anyway?
I only referred that link for the textual reference. I would not get my theology from him.
Does it really matter how horrible Hell is?? As long as we all agree that it is a place of eternal torment, wouldn't we be better off going to Heaven? I mean, I know everyone here likes to take cheap shots about how boring or idiotic they thing Christians are, but the truth is, if I filled Gitmo with your friends and put it next to a day spa full of Christians, would you really rather go to Gitmo? I mean, for a laugh you might say you would, but would you really rather go through daily torture than have a full body massage, just because of who's beside you?
I would suggest that ANY situation that continues for ETERNITY would be Hell.
I can think of many situations that would be a lot of fun for many thousands of years, but actual E-T-E-R-N-I-T-Y ?-?-?-!-!-!
No matter what circumstances in which one finds one's self, no matter what type of blissful state, if it goes on for eternity, it's just another form of grinding boredom. MAKE IT STOP! Eventually, you go postal.
Eternity = Hell
Do people who talk about eternal bliss really wrap their minds around what they are wishing for?
Is the search for contentment and happiness only about the destination? Or do we also enjoy the journey?
Don't humans yearn for growth and change? Don't we enjoy making our own decisions, even if we might make huge mistakes? Don't we enjoy the growth that comes from making errors?
Enforced, guaranteed bliss removes the sweetness.
Don't we cherish the great circle of life? The very thing that makes the vitality of youth so wonderful is the knowledge that it is short. Even as we are enjoying the full bloom of youth, aren't we yearning to be older?
Don't we cherish the hard-won wisdom of old age, yet reflect upon a fully-lived life with a joy that is bittersweet, because it will shortly come to an end?
Isn't eternal ANYTHING merely stultifying, mind-numbing stagnation? Even if you get your 72 virgins, don't you get bored, eventually? Don't you eventually tire of a diet of milk and honey?
Think about what eternity actually means.
Isn't a back-rub that NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER ends the same as torture?
MAKE IT STOP!!! (It doesn't stop, EVER!)
I like growth and change. I like learning new things. I value my finite life. "Life is short" is why we love it. Isn't the fact that it rained yesterday, and we might not be here to see tomorrow, the reason we appreciate each fine sunny day? (Actually, I love rainy weather. I love a big snowstorm. It is life's challenges that make it special.)
To me, the very fact that life is finite is what gives it great value. How can you value something that comes in infinite quantities? An eternity of bliss sounds like pretty devalued bliss.
More like a cheap, bad drug trip.
Eternal ANYTHING sounds horrific.
Doc "I mean, I know everyone here likes to take cheap shots about how boring or idiotic they thing Christians are, but the truth is, if I filled Gitmo with your friends and put it next to a day spa full of Christians, would you really rather go to Gitmo?"
Okay. Take something that you believe. Now believe the opposite. See how that didn't work?
I can't speak for all atheists (not until I take over. Moo ha-ha!), but it's the same for me and God (any of them...besides possibly the deist one). I'd like there to be a...something...that personally cared for me, personally, that watched and guided and protected and whatever, but I can't. If I go to eternal Gitmo, but with firey burning, then it's not because I chose it. It's because I can't believe what I can't believe, any more than a Christian (who, upon realizing that the Islamic hell is worse than the Christian one) could go "Well, I believe that Allah is god and Mohammad is his prophet".
I hope that makes sense.
Also, if you filled Gitmo with my friends (or my neighbours or my enemies), no matter what you did next door, I'd call you a monster. I'm just saying.
Doubly so if you put them there for not believing the right thing.
I mean, for a laugh you might say you would, but would you really rather go through daily torture than have a full body massage, just because of who's beside you?
Well the reason I laugh about hell when christians threaten me with it is because I don't believe in it. It isn't real. There's no evidence for it and anyone who claims there is evidence is just lying for jesus.
I wouldn't say we have any physical evidence for Heaven or Hell. As with most of Christianity, it's a matter of believing the Bible or not.
Without evidence, why choose the Bible over any other holy book or any other belief system that anyone can conjure up?
As with most of Christianity, it's a matter of believing the Bible or not.
Precisely. And there's absolutely no reason (besides cultural reasons) to believe the bible is more true than any other religious text.
Of course most christians haven't ever read other religious texts. I bet a majority of them haven't even read the bible cover to cover.
If there is such a thing as an "eternal soul", I would not take the fate of my own so lightly. But any reason you could give me to believe christianity, people of other religions could say the exact same thing of their own religions.
Additionally, any reasons you could use to refute other religions, people of those religions could use the same reasons to refute christianity.
Even your buddy Robert Madewell admits that if he were to believe there was a God, he'd believe it to be the Christian God. There is not a close second "holy book" to the Bible when it comes to incorporation of historical fact, archeological evidence, or documented existence of characters.
Anonymous: rather than you simply making an assertion, could you please back it up with evidence? Particularly:
- archeological evidence of the events in the bible
- documented existence of the characters in the bible
Specifically, I would like some evidence that the character of jesus was a real man. You might be able to prove that some kings and minor characters mentioned, but how about the most important character?
I would appreciate it if you didn't bring up the alleged writings of Tacitus and Josephus as evidence for jesus as you have several times before because they are not historically reliable (strong evidence they have been tampered with by christians) and I am asking for reliable evidence, especially in light of you mentioning how well supported the bible is.
Anonymous "There is not a close second "holy book" to the Bible when it comes to incorporation of historical fact, archeological evidence, or documented existence of characters."
Actually, the Qur'an is better. With it, everything in the Tanakh and New Testament that's demonstrably wrong is because they were corrupted by Man, and anything in the Qur'an that's wrong is because it's only inerrant in the original language, and conflicts only appear to be conflicts because later revelation supercedes earlier, if memory serves (and it's conveniently not layed out in chronological order).
If that's true about Robert, and I can't speak for Robert, I have a feeling that he would be a Xian because that's the culture he was brought up in. It's not because it is supported. If he felt it was supported, he would be a Xian now.
Wrap your mind around this. Of course, we all understand that there can be no pleasure unless it stands in contrast to pain, no evil unless it stands in contrast to good and no immorality unless it stands in contrast to morality.
So Heaven, which has been reported as eternal bliss and Hell which is called 'eternal torture' are both entirely ineffective. Anyone going to heaven would eventually have no reason to think it's so good since nothing bad ever happens and anyone in hell would eventually tire of the torture and like a runner in a marathon break through the pain into eternal blah.
Who's administering the torture in hell anyway? Little devils? If god created everything and it's all so good why would he create a league of ugly little demons bent on shoving hot pokers up your ass? That doesn't sound so loving.
If you had seen an abortion or seen an aborted baby you might not be so nonchalant with your words.
And it isn't man's job to play God and decide who gets to live and who gets to die. That's why we have a justice system. Punishment must be made if you take a life. Whether that life is small and short in existence or not, it is still murder of a person if you kill 'abort' a baby. Fetus's (Latin for baby) do not grow up to be frogs, lizards or birds. They grow into a person. A person who matters just as much as you do. And who should have every right that you have been given to lead a full, long and healthy life.
Jennifer,
First of all, welcome and thank you for the comments.
Why do you think that seeing an abortion or an aborted fetus (or from an earlier stage?) would make my argument any different? You do realize that fully grown adult humans can and are brutalized and that that's not a pretty picture either, don't you? In fact, the difference is that fully grown adults can feel the pain inflicted, while the unborn can't until a certain time.
Still, you seem to think that we shouldn't "play god" because "punishment must be made if you take a life." Yet, why should one be punished for helping another get to heaven? If you've actually done that unborn fetus a favor by sending it to heaven, why should any punishment ensue? Shouldn't god be happy that you've done this because god desires that all souls go to heaven? You're helping god out by sending one more soul to heaven that otherwise may have become corrupted while on Earth. This is what I'm asking.
However, God intended for that child to lead others to Heaven as well. You have condemned others by sending that one soul to Heaven early. That's why it's still wrong.
You don't know that, and in fact you would most likely be wrong in quite a few cases. For children born in non-Xian majority areas, the chances are rather slim that a child will lead people to heaven through Xianity.
Besides, if we aborted all the unborn, then all would go to heaven and there would be no need to evangelize. It's still inconsistent to claim that aborted souls go to heaven and that it's a bad thing.
The goal of your life is not only to go to Heaven. That is what everyone wants in the end, but there are things we are to do along the way.
Jennifer: And it isn't man's job to play God...
Silly you...
There's no god.
Jennifer: ... and decide who gets to live and who gets to die.
That's exactly what transplant committees do when they select for transplant recipients. Are you saying transplant committees shouldn't be selective when deciding who gets a life saving organ?
Jennifer: Punishment must be made if you take a life.
An embryo isn't a life.
Jennifer: Whether that life is small and short in existence or not, it is still murder of a person if you kill 'abort' a baby.
No one's advocating killing babies.
Jennifer: Fetus's (Latin for baby) do not grow up to be frogs, lizards or birds.
Well, frog fetuses grow up to be frogs, lizard fetuses grow up to be lizards, and bird fetuses grow up to be birds.
Well, most of the time. Sometimes they die before birth for some reason, or they get eaten by other animals before they grow up, or they suffer from physical defects of some sort and don't survive long.
Jennifer: They grow into a person.
Right. They grow into a person. Zygotes/blastocysts/embryos/fetuses, by definition, are not people, so calling abortion murder is inaccurate.
Jennifer: A person who matters just as much as you do.
Matters to whom? Certainly not me. I couldn't care less if anyone gets an abortion. It's none of my business. Why do YOU care if anyone (other than yourself, of course) gets an abortion? Why is it any of your business?
Jennifer: And who should have every right that you have been given to lead a full, long and healthy life.
Some fetuses aren't able to lead full, long and healthy lives. Is it okay to abort them?
As far as rights are concerned - when an zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus is capable of taking advantage of the rights extended to people, extending them those rights is logical. Until then, it's a moot point.
Anon: The goal of your life is not only to go to Heaven.
:snort: Says who...
Anon: That is what everyone wants in the end...
:snort: Is that so...
I've personally never heard a description of heaven that wasn't utterly dreadful. Why anyone would want to go there is beyond me.
Of course, heaven's just make believe, so it's ultimately moot, thank god.
Tyler,
Embryos are alive. It's whether they should merit the mantle of personhood that is at stake.
Anon,
What things are we supposed to do, who decided on these things, and why? If one of those things is to try and get as many souls into heaven as possible, then I should abort as many "babies" as possible.
We are to love and enjoy fellowship with one another during our time here, along with winning souls for Christ. And our Creator decided this.
GCT: Tyler,
Embryos are alive.
I'm well aware of that, and I didn't claim otherwise. :)
Malignant brain tumors are alive too.
GCT: It's whether they should merit the mantle of personhood that is at stake.
If they did, they'd be called people! :P
Anon: We are to love and enjoy fellowship with one another during our time here...
Don't need a god for that.
Anon: ... along with winning souls for Christ.
Man, don't you ever get tired of being christ's bitch?
Fuck Jesus. Let him "win souls" for himself, the lazy git. Assuming he exists, if the best he can do to convince people he exists is sending out throngs of walking monuments to stupidity such as yourself, he's got nothing to offer anyway.
Anon: And our Creator decided this.
Yeah? Fuck him too.
Tyler,
I'm sure you are aware of that fact, but you did say that "An embryo isn't a life." I knew what you meant, but I also see that it could be confusing for others reading that.
Anon,
"We are to love and enjoy fellowship with one another during our time here..."
And, you know this how? Besides, how does one love and enjoy fellowship with a bunch of sinners, or if one is suffering from some disease? And, if it leads to hell, it certainly isn't worth it. Why would a god that wants us to be in heaven also want us to be here so that we can end up in hell?
"...along with winning souls for Christ."
And you know this how? And, how is abortion not doing this? Do not aborted souls get to go to heaven? By aborting souls one would be doing this very thing.
"And our Creator decided this."
So you claim, but you don't know that, and it's contradictory to this same creator's stated goals. That's what I'm pointing out.
GCT: Tyler,
I'm sure you are aware of that fact, but you did say that "An embryo isn't a life." I knew what you meant, but I also see that it could be confusing for others reading that.
It was intentionally ambiguous. A pro-lifer/anti-choicer taking that statement to task is going to be forced to make some distinctions they're probably not going to be comfortable with, and that's part of my job - making people who are intent on forcing their views on others uncomfortable. :P
Sorry if I ruined your surprise then.
Eh, you didn't ruin anything.
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