Why does god test us? For instance, take Genesis 22, where god orders Abraham to sacrifice his own son, Isaac. Abraham is ready to do it too, until god stays his hand at the last second. god explains that he was testing Abraham to see if he would do it, and satisfied that Abraham would take his own son's life, god relents at the last second.
Wow.
Isn't god omniscient? Shouldn't god know what Abraham will do? Why the need to test him? What about all the other tests that god puts all of us through, are they necessary? The only possible answer is, "No." So, why would god put us through all these things unnecessarily? This is sadism on god's part. The only possible answer is that god wills to put us through misery, and the testing is really not a part of it. god is a sadist who loves to see us suffer.
(It should also be noted that god does order people to kill their children, and we have proof of it in the Bible, so who's to say that modern day parents who kill their children based on god's orders are not really receiving orders from god to do so?)
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I heard a message from god today. He was saying, I want to show you something good; I want you to know that I am real. He said "just wait and watch". Of course these were not audible, just some thoughts. I have often wondered how you hear god. For years I have been reminded about some prophet (elisha or elija?) who listened to god's "still small voice".
No christian can tell you how to hear god, they're all guessing too. Usually they'll explain that it's through thoughts that are then confirmed through friends or experience. Over the years, I have experimented in many different ways in hopes of learning how to hear god.
Although I have many interesting stories of the recurring bullshit that happens to me*, one is that I lost my entire retirement in the stock market based on 1)a sermon from my pastor and 2)bad investment advice. So today I went into the stock market in hopes of making a hundred bucks or so. Anyway, as anyone knows, the price can change in a heartbeat.
Apparently the great thing that god wanted to show me (so that I would know he was god) was the price of the stock climbing back to within pennies of the price I had paid and then to watch it fall by $.71.
So what I can surmize is that either the "voice" was not "god" (my preference) or he is a prick who loves to watch me suffer (my preference).
Now one thing you have to understand, is that although I don't live under a piece of cardboard, I now have no home, live with a cousin, and am incurring 10's of thousands in debt.
YEAAAAH GOD!!
* my full name is Acidkoolaid Murphy - the law was named after me. A few years ago I visited with a counselor because I was having a hard time dealing with my asshole boss. This couselor has been in the biz for 30 years and worked in some of the most well-known psychiatric facilities. He said "Murphy, never in my life have I met a person who has encountered so many difficulites - difficulties that you don't bring upon yourself; difficulties that just find you"
GGOOOOO!! JESUS!!
Acid,
I'm sorry to hear about your financial (and other) troubles. It's amazing to me that so many Xians will look at a story like yours and say that it is your fault for not believing in god enough or not having enough faith, or maybe just that god works in mysterious ways. They are so eager to shift the blame for bad things away from god, but if something good happens, it's all god's fault. This is called counting the hits and ignoring the misses and is a very common practice among theists, since their worldview does not comport with reality. The best I can tell you is that you should focus on yourself and what makes you better off and happy instead of worrying about what some theist insists is real.
"The best I can tell you is that you should focus on yourself and what makes you better off and happy instead of worrying about what some theist insists is real."
This is what Acid has been doing all his life and it has done him no good at all. Although God still loves him it is clear that he hates God and until this is revolved there can be no healing.
I have never had lots of money, but since being a Christian have been fully satisfied with every blessing that God has poured upon me.
As I have said I have seen many drug addicts come to Christ and have their lives turned around.
The one thing acid really has never done is put his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and Acid I feel for you - but you would rather take the advice that gct would give and use the kind of language about God that gct would use.
By the way Acid, Hearing God comes in different forms. When my wife became a Christian she did so having heard God in a dream. It happened like this:
My wife had been visiting mediums and one night she had a dream. She saw the face of the medium and heard the voice of God saying 'Do not consort with this woman again for she will defile you'
Now my wife had never heard of that word 'defile' before but when she awoke she realised that she didn't like the word. She checked it out in the dictionary and found that it meant 'to be made ritually unclean'.
She then decided to open a bible that had been given to her by Jehovah's Witness. Opening it up at Leviticus 19 her eyes went to straight to verse 31 which says 'Do not consort with mediums and spiritists, they will defile you'.
She knew that she had to go to church and gave her life to Jesus very soon after this experience.
My wife had heard God through a dream and quite miraculously the word was confirmed through the words of the Bible.
Acid - more testimony to come!
QOI,
"This is what Acid has been doing all his life and it has done him no good at all."
Um, have you not been paying attention? He was a Xian, just like you are and just like I was. How can you justify saying what you've said either morally or factually?
"Although God still loves him it is clear that he hates God and until this is revolved there can be no healing."
Is this how god shows his loving, by making people suffer? If this is your idea of what love is, then I would hate to see what you think is appropriate for people you dislike or even hate.
"I have never had lots of money, but since being a Christian have been fully satisfied with every blessing that God has poured upon me."
Evidence please that god has poured any "blessings" on you and show me how it differs from any placebo effect.
"As I have said I have seen many drug addicts come to Christ and have their lives turned around."
Actually, what turns their lives around is their realization that they need to get help for their addiction. They attach god to it later. Tell me, if someone you knew needed psychiatric help, would you send that person to a psychiatrist (psychologist) or a minister/pastor/priest/etc.?
"The one thing acid really has never done is put his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and Acid I feel for you - but you would rather take the advice that gct would give and use the kind of language about God that gct would use."
Does it offend you for me to point out that god is in fact a genocidal maniac? If the Bible is true, as you believe it is, then that is exactly what god is, by his own admission.
Finally, do you really think these hearsay stories of yours are compelling evidence? What about the stories of people of other faiths? They swear that their stories are just as real as yours.
BTW QOI,
Why is it that you never take on any of the arguments against here, and only proselytize instead? Take the OP for example. Why would an omni-max god need to test us? He should have to, yet he clearly does as the Bible says. So, what's the deal? Will you defend this particular logical problem with your god, or will you simply come back with your usual message that lacks substance?
"The one thing acid really has never done is put his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ" - QOI, bull fucking shit!! You don't know me; how dare you make that presumption.
Acid
Putting trust in the Lord is an absolute and permanent thing - it could not end in slagging God off - perhaps because something one wants hasn't happened in the timing that you have stated.
Again there is so much anger and pain in your answer that only God can heal!
"one thing" - I am so thankful that my eyes are being opened. And one thing in particular that I am really noting is that when I read what amounts to your propaganda, it like the adults is a Charlie Brown cartoon - "wah wah wah wah wah wa wa"
The thing I've noticed about QOI is, he lives in his own mental delusion. He cannot find fault in the Bible god because to acknowledge fault in the Bible god would mean to acknowledge fault in himself.
Therefore he has to side with an ego maniac, because the Bible god was invented by a man as a reflection of himself.
Thought you might be interested in a blog entry I have just read:
"Simply because you do not believe the truth, does not make it any less the truth.
You might say that you don't believe in gravity. "It's not real! It's a lie!!!! There's no such thing as gravity...it's all in your head! Watch me!! I'm going to climb out this 4th story window and gently float down to the ground, because I do not personally believe in gravity!"
Guess what? When our friend steps out of that window, he's going to quickly realise that gravity IS real. His unbelief in gravity is not going to stop him from going "splat!" on the ground.
Some people like to say "Well, I don't BELIEVE in the Bible, so any argument that you make based off of it doesn't work for me. It doesn't APPLY to me because I don't believe in the Bible."
Doesn't matter whether you "believe in it" or not. The Bible is REAL...it's the TRUTH...regardless of your views on its reliability and validity.
If you don't want to agree with the Bible on a certain issue, that's fine with me. That's your choice. BUT...that doesn't mean that the Bible is "wrong" on that issue...it simply means that you don't wish to follow the truth.
The Bible clearly tells us that there's a God. Perhaps you don't believe in God...that's fine, but just keep in mind your not believing in Him doesn't make Him any less real."
You're trying to apply apples with oranges QOI!
Gravity, although invisible can be tested as a verifiable scientific fact, even by your example it is self evident, therefore no faith in it's existance is needed.
The wind although invisible, can be tested as a verifiable scientific fact, therefore no faith in it's existance is needed.
The Bible and it's contents cannot be tested, nor can any one word written in the Bible be proved as a verifiable fact, therefore a huge amount of faith and self-deception is needed for one to believe in such nonsense.
QOI said:
>Doesn't matter whether you "believe in it" or not. The Bible is REAL...it's the TRUTH...regardless of your views on its reliability and validity.
Because you say it's true is all the proof anyone needs???
If you don't want to agree with the Bible on a certain issue, that's fine with me. That's your choice. BUT...that doesn't mean that the Bible is "wrong" on that issue...it simply means that you don't wish to follow the truth.
Umm No, we actually do wish for the truth, but we have noticed that not one single word in the Bible was written by a god nor jesus, the Bible was written by goat herders that had no education and were on halucegenic drugs
The Bible clearly tells us that there's a God. Perhaps you don't believe in God...that's fine, but just keep in mind your not believing in Him doesn't make Him any less real." The Harry Potter books tell us that Harry Potter is real, just because you choose not to believe in Harry Potter, doesn't make him any less real, just because a book was assembled together a thousand years ago and claims that it is true does not make it any more true, how come you have rejected the Qu'ran, billions of people believe it is true, therefore by your standards of reasoning, the Qu'ran has to be true also
In the end you have No Proof, all you have is a Belief.
A belief is not a provable fact, you cannot prove that the Bible is true, you cannot prove that Jesus ever existed.
You are propagating to your beliefs on to other people that you cannot prove to be true, it's just your opinion that the Bible is true.
I would prefer to see facts rather than hear your opinion.
Remember in the New Testament when Satan quotes Scripture to tempt Jesus? Christians like to use that passage to show that sometimes when you think God is talking to you, think again because it could be a trap.
Now what about this story of Abraham? Christians like to use it to show that we should trust God, because if he is always in control.
Except, if Jesus had tried to follow Satan, would God have stopped him like he stopped Abraham? And if Jesus was right to question the usage of Scripture (because it created a contradiction with other Scripture), why didn't Abraham question God when he was breaking his own laws which are written in Scripture? And what about where it says "all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness"?
Why are people listening to some commands to do wrong and not others in the Bible? Wait... maybe it's not about what's being said at all. Maybe it isn't about the Scripture itself. Maybe it's about who's quoting Scripture! In that case, how do we know if the person quoting Scripture is posessed by the Holy Spirit or by Satan, when the Scripture quoted sounds alright? It's all up to the person listening to decide.
I'll say that again: It's all up to the person listening to decide whether Scripture is being manipulated for good or evil!
That means if a person likes what they hear, then he/she can decide that Scripture is being used for good (such as homosexuality being evil). But if a Scripture inconveniences a person, it must have been manipulated by Satan, and he/she can freely ignore it (such as giving up all their money to the poor to follow Christ).
And this is exactly why Christians can never see the self-contradictions filling the Bible.
QOI:
I want you to reread your own post---the one about how one can claim not to believe in gravity, but it doesn't change its truth---but, as you reread it, I want you to replace the words "the Bible" with the words "Darwinian evolution" and replace the word "God" with the word "GCT."
With that simple modification, you have finally written something with which we can all agree.
Abraham and Isaac - now there's an important story - I am going to a house group to help people share their faith just now, so I can't give you the finer details of that account, but don't worry 'I will be back'
Much love
Neil
P.S.
I will entitle my next post: 'An uncanny truth?'
QOI,
You are right in that disbelief in something does not falsify it. This, however, does not lend credence to your mythology.
"Some people like to say "Well, I don't BELIEVE in the Bible, so any argument that you make based off of it doesn't work for me. It doesn't APPLY to me because I don't believe in the Bible.""
I would not make that argument. I would say that the Bible is not a reliable document with which to use as evidence unless it can be corroborated. And, only those parts of it that can be corroborated should be held as valid. Your holy book has not given evidence to the idea of a deity, much less one that has the attributes that you give it. In fact, quite the opposite. If we were to use the Bible as evidence of the entity that you call god, then we would have to conclude that god is not just, fair, loving, good, etc, but rather is hateful, capricious, evil, jealous, spiteful, etc.
"Doesn't matter whether you "believe in it" or not. The Bible is REAL...it's the TRUTH...regardless of your views on its reliability and validity."
You forgot the corollary to the quote you mentioned above, which is: Just because you believe something is true, doesn't make it so.
"Abraham and Isaac - now there's an important story - I am going to a house group to help people share their faith just now, so I can't give you the finer details of that account, but don't worry 'I will be back'"
(Assuming that "Question of idnetity = Question of Identity") Why do I think you are full of it when you say that you will actually comment on the substance of the OP. Oh yeah, it's because you have yet to do so. But, he, you could prove me wrong, and actually debate the topic at hand. That would be a shocker. My bet is that you'll simply proselytize some more, all the while ignoring the gaping holes in your mythology that are being pointed out.
"An uncanny truth" (as promised)
First the need to state once again that no serious historian denies:
(1) The existence of Jesus:
(2) That he died on the cross
Josephus - a non Christian historian from the first century writes:
"Now there was at this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (considered to be) the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us had condemned him to the cross ..."
Jospehus then went on to describe the fact that many gave testimony to the fact that he was alive and that these "tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day"
Take the fact that as stated that no serious historian denies the existence of this Jesus as a given! (I know you guys probably won't but not accepting this seriously rocks your credibility).
Now to Abraham and Isaac and the "uncanny truth":
Like much of the Old Testament the account of Abraham's (non!) sacrifice of Isaac foretells the coming of Christ:
In fact the account so coincides with Jesus' death and resurrection that the word "uncanny" becomes a massive understatement.
(You might want to follow the reading in Genesis 22):
(1) v 2 (God said) "Take your son your only son, whom you love": Abraham had one son (who he had waited 100 years for - but that's by the by)whom he loved: God had one son ... "in whom I am well pleased"
(2) v3 Isaac was traveling to his death with the donkey: reminds us of Jesus' entry into Jerusalem as he travels towards crucifixion.
(3)The sacrifice was to take place v 4 "On the third day":
So Abraham had counted him dead until the third day - the same length of time that Jesus was known to be dead.
(4) v 6 "Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac":
In the same way, by God the Father asking for Jesus' obedience, he was effectively placing the wood on His one and only son.
(5) v 9 "(Abraham)bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar":
Here there is no sign of any struggle - Isaac could easily have over powered this old frail man but even to death is obedient to his father. Philipians 2 records
:
" Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
And being found in the appearance of man, he humbled himself and became OBEDIENT TO DEATH - EVEN DEATH ON A CROSS!"
Of course the major difference is that Jesus did die on the cross in place of the 'sons' of Abraham - as Abraham prophesied in v8 "God himself will provide the lamb"
I don't know if you noticed in verse 5 Abraham said something quite curious:
v5 "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU":
My conclusion here is just in the same way that God the Father believed in the resurrection, so too did Abraham. "On the third day he rose again".
HAbraham knew that God does not break His promises and God had promised that from the seed of Abraham will rise a great nation.
The good news is that the lamb who was slain instead of the "sons" of Abraham means that you too are invited to join that great nation that God promised.
QOI,
""An uncanny truth" (as promised)"
Wow, was I wrong about you and your ability to discuss the OP? (Reads ahead...) Nope, you didn't answer the central arguments of the OP, instead opting for some Bible code-like story.
"First the need to state once again that no serious historian denies:
(1) The existence of Jesus:
(2) That he died on the cross"
Are you serious? You actually think this is true? The existence of Jesus is far from settled as is his supposed demise.
"Josephus - a non Christian historian from the first century writes"
This was written at best well after the fact, and is hotly contested, with the majority of scholars doubting that these are the words of Josephus. The best hypothesis is that this was inserted by later Xians in an attempt to shore up their story.
"Take the fact that as stated that no serious historian denies the existence of this Jesus as a given! (I know you guys probably won't but not accepting this seriously rocks your credibility)."
Considering the dearth of evidence and the fact that your claim that all serious historians believe in a human named Jesus seriously rocks your credibility, not mine.
"Like much of the Old Testament the account of Abraham's (non!) sacrifice of Isaac foretells the coming of Christ"
And thus follows a whole lot of post-hoc reasoning at about the level of the Bible codes. Call me unimpressed.
"Of course the major difference is that Jesus did die on the cross in place of the 'sons' of Abraham - as Abraham prophesied in v8 "God himself will provide the lamb""
And apart from all the other things that don't match up in the story, but who's counting? When you ignore the misses and only count the hits, it's pretty easy to find good correlation.
"v5 "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU":"
Most likely because he knew that his companions would think him quite mad if they knew what he was up to.
"My conclusion here is just in the same way that God the Father believed in the resurrection, so too did Abraham. "On the third day he rose again"."
Abraham thought his son was to be resurrected? That's not even remotely supported and a non sequitor.
"The good news is that the lamb who was slain instead of the "sons" of Abraham means that you too are invited to join that great nation that God promised."
What? I thought that the sacrifice of Jesus was supposed to be the good news, not the slaughter of the lamb that Abraham killed. You are really twisting in the wind here trying to shore up a story that really doesn't work. Further, I fail to see how sacrificing a lamb somehow gives me any benefit.
All of this, however, does nothing to counter the original argument, that god should not need to test us, yet he does. I also find god's actions here to be evil and cruel. He orders a man to kill his own son, which should be considered mental torture. If any of you readers have kids, how would you feel if someone (anyone god or not) ordered you to kill your child? Yet, god inflicts this on poor Abraham. Does it make it any better when god comes in at the last second and says, "Oh, I was just testing you to see if you would do it?" No, of course not. god is a monster and logically contradictory in that he should have no need to test us.
I quit Christianity, and all supernatural belief, five years ago. I couldn't stand the shit that "Jesus loves the children." malarky after seeing my theater professor break down and cry because his favorite student ( a young Christian guy) died from bone cancer. All I saw was God being undeniably cruel to his creation as I knew of little Christian kids ( and adults) who feared and loved him dying of disease and starvation, while "Immoral" people lived long lives just to wreck havoc on the earth with their sins. There's always some Christian tv show saying being Christian leads to a longer, healthier life, but I just see that as a bunch of bullshit as I've known so many people who have became Christians all of a sudden die in some horrible long prolonged manner-as if their god was an abusive bastard waiting to hurt them when they finally recognized his "holy" existence.
Yeah just recently a drunkard 35
run across the median and hit them head-on, killed a mother 63, her daughter 38 and her husband 40, her daughter was well known for writing gospel songs about the praise and love for jesus, the drunkard walked away un harmed, prob. get a couple years involuntary manslaughter.
Praise the Lord and his protective hand for his xtain followers.
Steven
If death is not the end - then the best thing that can happen to anyone is to pass through the shadow of death - so that we can be with Him!
QOI,
If you truly believe that death is the best thing that can happen to someone, why don't you kill bunches of Xians so that they can get to heaven quicker? I assume you don't support abortion, correct? Why not? It's inconsistent with your stance on getting to heaven quicker. Also, why doesn't god do a good thing and bring us there quicker if it really is better for us, since he supposedly loves us and all? Why do Xians feel sad at funerals? Why aren't Xians trying to die in mass quantities?
Sure, God already knows what Abraham was going to do.
But did Abraham?
So, you concede that god already knew and therefore had no reason to test Abraham. Of course, god decided to put Abraham through this mental torture test anyway.
As for what Abraham would do, he obviously would do it according to the story. Nowhere in the story does Abraham have the slightest hesitation. Further, the story has god saying expressly that he did it to test Abraham to see if he'd follow through. This is a pretty frank admission that god is not omni-max.
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