Friday, 3 October 2008

Glory


Many Xians assert that god created us in order to glorify himself. Apart from being a vain, self-centered, egotistical, and immoral thing for god to do, this begs the question as to why a perfect being would do such a thing.

Shouldn't a perfect being already have perfect, maximum glory? How can the creation of humans increase the glory that a perfect being already possesses? If this is possible, then god is not and can not be perfect. The very act of god creating us to glorify himself means that god is not and can not be perfect.

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

This depends. If the Glory was something God required then it does suggest He was imperfect. If the glorifycation of God was an intended purpose, not out of necessity but out of functionality, then I would say that it affirms God's soverignty that His purpose in creating mankind will be fulfilled despite our actions.

GCT said...

"If the glorifycation of God was an intended purpose, not out of necessity but out of functionality, then I would say that it affirms God's soverignty that His purpose in creating mankind will be fulfilled despite our actions."

But, why would a perfect being desire us to glorify him? You only desire that which you don't have or that which you need. If god created us to glorify him, then it would be like less than a drop of water in the ocean to an already perfectly glorified entity. If I already have all the money in the world, it makes no sense for me to hire people to make me more money. It's literally non-sensical for god to create us to glorify him if he is already maximally glorious.

Anonymous said...

In giving us a purpose it shows not God's need for mankind. I don't believe we were created because God "needed" anything.

When an artist stares at a blank canvas he doesn't need to paint. He's not lacking anything which drives him create art. The art is the expression of his desire to create. I believe that God wanted to create because He is creative, not because He needed us.

If you read the Genesis account and look at the way the literature is constructed, in Genesis 1 mankind is the climax of God's creation. This shows that we are one of the greatest examples of God's creativity. In Genesis 2 mankind is the centerpiece of God's creation. This shows that God was not haphazard in His creation, but created everything (especially mankind) with an intended purpose.

Studying history you will find that many ancient near-eastern kings would set up a statue bearing their image in a land they had conquered. This showed their ownership of that land. I believe we were created in the image of God to show His ownership and soverignty over all creation (not because He needed us to fill this role, but out of His creativity He decided to design a creature to perform this task).

fatblue said...

"I believe that God wanted to create because He is creative, not because He needed us."

When he created Hell, God was being kind of annoying. 'But those artist-types can be pretty darned moody sometimes.

Once you get past the idea that he'll be sending most of us to hell for infinity, you'll see that he's a heck-of-a-guy really. He's just an artist with an interesting perspective on things.

Anonymous said...

It amazes me how you can jump topics and somehow still think you're on point. The question was not if God was good. The question was how God could create beings with the purpose to bring Himself glory without being imperfect. That has been answered. That was a good attempt at subject dodging and misdirection though.

GCT said...

"In giving us a purpose it shows not God's need for mankind. I don't believe we were created because God "needed" anything."

If you had read the OP, you would see that I was responding to a specific Xian argument, one that you are not using here.

GCT said...

"The question was how God could create beings with the purpose to bring Himself glory without being imperfect. That has been answered."

No it has not. Before you accuse others of things, you might want to clear the log from your own eye.

Unless your previous post was meant to imply that the purpose he made us for was to glorify him? That is not how I interpreted what you wrote. If that is what you meant, you still have not answered the objection. Why does god need glorification from us? That and the subsequent questions which have already been asked are still on the table. Simply stating the opposite, that god simply wanted to be an artist, does not answer the objections/questions.

fatblue said...

"It amazes me how you can jump topics and somehow still think you're on point. The question was not if God was good. The question was how God could create beings with the purpose to bring Himself glory without being imperfect. That has been answered. That was a good attempt at subject dodging and misdirection though."

You've got me :(. I'm a topic-jumper who thinks I'm on point.

The part that was really hurtful was at the end of your comment, -"[...] good attempt at subject dodging and misdirection ..." I hope that you, good sir, will find forgiveness in your heart for my faults.

May God help the brave soul who will match wits with you.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I was stating that part of God's design for mankind was to bring Himself Glory. I hope to point out a flaw in the question, "Why did God NEED glorifycation?".

This question suggests that creation or purpose could only result from a need. That is what has been addressed.

Unless you wish to argue that desire is always the result of need or some other trait which lacks virtue?

GCT said...

"This question suggests that creation or purpose could only result from a need. That is what has been addressed."

At best you can now claim that god created us on a whim, which destroys the Xian tenet that we hold a special place in god's heart and he loves us. Why do I say that? Because you are contending that god had no need in mind, no goal to fulfill (one only fulfills goals when one has a need to) etc. So, god must have simply created us in order to create us, with no further thought.

In reality, thinking entities don't intend to do things without some reason to do so, and that reason stems from some need or lack. A perfect being has no needs and lacks nothing, and so has no motivation to do anything.

Besides, why would god create us to glorify him? You still have not answered that question. If god has maximal glory from being perfect, then making us is non-sensical.

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