Sunday, 26 October 2008

Robotic Perfection


The Xian god is said to be perfect and omni-max, but is this even possible? What is entailed by being perfect?

god must, by virtue of being perfect, remain perfect in all situations: choices, thoughts, deeds, etc. Because god must remain perfect and because no two choices (I'll focus on choices, but the argument works equally well for thoughts, deeds, etc.) are completely equal, there will always be one superior/perfect choice. If god is to be perfect, then god must choose this choice. This leaves god with only one option at all times when choices are made. Since god only has one option, god is merely a robot that has no free will or freedom.

But, freedom is better than slavery, right? Isn't it better to have free will/freedom than to not? (Any Xian that argues against this point negates the free will defense to the problem of evil and has bigger fish to fry at that point - not that the free will defense is all that good, but it's the only thing the apologist has.) So, if it is better to be free and have choices, then god is not perfect, since god does not have this freedom. The tenet of god's perfection is therefore self-defeating.

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

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Dave said...

I have a feeling there is no such thing as either free will, or fate.

These are just human constructs - like the concept of a god - to help us make sense of some unknowable aspects of the universe in which we find ourselves.

Anonymous said...

"I have a feeling there is no such thing as ... fate."

Yet everyday, I seem to be subject to a fate I cannot control regardless of my prudence. Events that sabotage my daily choices happen to me so routinely that their is no other option but fate.

Since I have suffered financial devestation, finances are a major point in my life. An example of this routine sabotage occurred today.

Knowing that the stock market was primed for a huge upward bounce, I opened an account last night so that when this bounce occurred, I could participate. As I prepared to transact paperwork to fund the account, I received a phone call from an attorney that ended up requiring my attention for the last 4 hours that the market was in session. Consequently, despite my best efforts to be prepared for this bounce, events outside of my control sabatoged what became the
2nd highest closing in stock market history.

I watched the stock that I was to buy, increased in price by $26 in an hour and a half, yet I could do nothing.

Now if this was a single occurrance, then you might say "coincidence" or "shit happens", but this kind of crap happens to me all the time.

I can't help but believe in fate and that despite christian claims to the contrary, god picks and choses who he allows good things to happen to and who he royally fucks.

Dave said...

>I can't help but believe in fate and that despite christian claims to the contrary, god picks and choses who he allows good things to happen to and who he royally fucks.<

Whereas I simply think you are delusional, a statement that might seem rude and extremely harsh - and it is - but this is the Internet, after all.

More to the point, with or without a god, if we were to assign good luck and bad luck values to things that happen to people, and looked at a wide range of people who experience good and bad luck, by random chance some people will seem to have better luck than others. Perhaps you truly are among the unlucky - but by chance, and not fate.

But then, ARE you unlucky? Are you eating three meals a day? Lots of people are starving around the world.

Do you have all your limbs? So many in Iraq and Afghanistan don't have arms and legs or their eyes or noses or ears, or hair.

Have you been raped? No? Well, your god hasn't bothered to stop the rapes in Darfur. But it's probably kept you safe from that violation.

Not gotten Ebola or AIDS lately, have you? Then you're lucky on that account, too.

With a bit of a perceptual change, you might see your life differently. You don't seem like the type of person to look outside yourself, though.

If you could look at the wider picture, you might realize there is no god, of Xian or any other design, except in your mind, and that might in turn allow you to see your life differently, one being more under your own control than you now think is possible.

This session is over - that'll be $5.

Anonymous said...

"your god"

I seem to be stuck with him; if I could get rid of him, I would.

You sure are an attacking sort. You ask questions and then answer them for me. How do you know that I don't have aids, or get to eat 3 meals a day?

The money I spoke of that I would have used in the stock market is borrowed and my actions were those of a desparate person. Maybe you have all your limbs, I don't.

If you want to make comparisons, you're on a circle; everyone suffers from something that another would hope to never endure.

I was reared to believe in a Christian god and I would love to let go without any of the fear of damnation or wrath BUT a person can't change overnight.

I don't mind if you disagree with me but I'd rather you not pontificate.

Dave said...

>You sure are an attacking sort. You ask questions and then answer them for me. How do you know that I don't have aids, or get to eat 3 meals a day?<

I'm just in a grouchy mood and the the Internet lends itself to, among many things, intemperate comments.

I don't know if you eat three squares a day, or have AIDS. It's why I asked. And the questions were designed to show you that luck - good or bad - can be relative. You're luck - or lack thereof - may only be in your own mind.

Your story about missing out on the big buy of the century? Come on....

>I don't mind if you disagree with me but I'd rather you not pontificate.<

When you say you'd prefer I'd not pontificate, you are pontificating,too ;-)

Anonymous said...

"Your story about missing out on the big buy of the century? Come on...."

Come on what? What's your point?

Should I have written a novel explaining the numerous other times similiar situations have occurred? Like how I bought US Steel stock on one afternoon because analyst said "buy" but instead, on the next morning, the price began dropping and when I went to sale so that I would only have a $2,000 loss, my computer broke down and I ended up losing $12,000 in less than 12 hours time?

Or maybe you'd like me to tell you how I wouldn't fuck my landlord so one week when she knew I waw out of town she hired a moving company to throw everything out in the street where it remained unattended for four days until word got to me of what had happened.

Or maybe you'd like to hear how my wife died 3 months after we were married. yawda yawda yawda

I don't call it bad luck because its TOO COINCIDENTAL. I call it a mean, malicious, and vengeful god.

"When you say you'd prefer I'd not pontificate, you are pontificating,too ;-)"

How so?

Anonymous said...

"Come on what? What's your point?"

Touchy, touchy! Did Dave not apologize for being grumpy, did he not include a winky smiley face, did he not explain the it's easy to be somewhat rude on the Internet?

I don't mean to pile on, but I agree, luck, good or bad, is how you see it. For example, you said you wanted to play the market, but the phone call from the attorney was more important.

So, why aren't you feelin' lucky, in a good way, that you got the call from the attorney and worked out whatever pressing issues you had?

If the call wasn't as important as watching the market, then luck has nothing to do with it - you made a poor choice to spend time away from what you knew was more important, the stock market.


"Or maybe you'd like to hear how my wife died 3 months after we were married. yawda yawda yawda"

Maybe Dave or GCT would like to hear that story, I don't want to. If I was rude and gumpy like Dave, I'd say I'm beginning to think your wife was in fact lucky. :-) Come on, lighten up.

I'm sure lots of people would love to be in a position to lose $12,000. I don't even have my own computer, I have to use the one in my office building, and I'm pulling the late shift tonight - you're probably sitting in your comfy home right now, so who's the lucky one? And I work in a cubicle without a window within 40 feet of where I'm working.

And what is this use of the word, "f**k?" Is that necessary here?

>its TOO COINCIDENTAL.<

Like the earlier comments about free will and fate, I don't think there is such a thing as coincidence either, except in the minds of human beings who can imagine two or more events are related in some way. Do you not think this is why, often enough, some people will see an amazing coincidence, while others looking at the same situation won't see a coincidence at all? That's how it works with my husband. :-) I think I see a coincidence, he doesn't know what I'm talking about!

You think you're unlucky. I think you're just a little upset over events in your life. There's probably plenty of time to come to your senses!

Anonymous said...

"Maybe Dave or GCT would like to hear that story, I don't want to."

Fuck you! oops, did I say fuck. Grow up. How many times have your virgin ears been raped.

"If I was rude and gumpy like Dave, I'd say I'm beginning to think your wife was in fact lucky."

What a cunt! You did say it.Come on, lighten up. :-)

I'm sure lots of people would love to be in a position to lose $12,000.

If you weren't so quick to jump my fucking (oops) shit you would have read it wasn't my fucking money.

What? Is this place full of pricks tonight/ (and one cunt)

"I don't even have my own computer, I have to use the one in my office building, and I'm pulling the late shift tonight - you're probably sitting in your comfy home right now, so who's the lucky one? And I work in a cubicle without a window within 40 feet of where I'm working."

I'm unemployed and can't get a job because I work in a field dominated by cunts. In case you haven't read, fucking (oops) bitch, there is no recession for women.

And what is this use of the word, "f**k?" Is that necessary here?

Soitgoes said...

Dear mouse:
Maybe if you start to take some responsibility for your choices, you'll grow up.

GCT said...

All right everyone, let's all calm down.

Anonymous said...

I learned several things from this little interchange.

1. The common ground of simply objecting to god/jesus is not enough, in this community, to foster some semblance of unity.

2. How sad it is that there are people who cannot see that in this world shit happens beyond the control of a person, leaving that person with no choice in the matter (and I'm not talking about choice in response to the event).

GCT said...

It's been said that getting atheists to agree on things is like herding cats. This is true because atheism does not carry with it ideological baggage or dogma. Such is the plight of free-thought.

fatblue said...

The guy who works with lousy people must be working in the IT field. I just quit my IT job yesterday, -that place was a meat-grinder.