Monday, 6 October 2008

Justice or Love


Many theists claim that we all deserve hell, and that it is just for god to place us there after we die. They assert that god is perfectly just and for us to go to hell shows god's justice.

Many of these Xians also assert that god is perfectly loving, that he loves us all and doesn't want us to perish in hell - that he shows his love by bestowing his grace upon us, thus saving us from what we deserve.

The problem with this, is that the theist has set up a condition where justice and grace are opposing ideas. In order for god to be perfectly just, we must all go to hell. In order for god to be perfectly loving, we must all be saved. The theist, by claiming that some go to hell and some go to heaven, has shown that god is neither perfectly just nor perfectly loving by the theist's own guidelines. When god grants grace, the person does not receive what the person deserves, hence justice is not served and god can not be perfectly just. Conversely, when god bestows grace on people to show his love, but is unwilling to do it for all, it shows that god can not be perfectly loving. Hence, the theist's argument is self-refuting.

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

"When god grants grace, the person does not receive what the person deserves, hence justice is not served and god can not be perfectly just."

Justice is still served. That is why Jesus died. He became a substituion in the believer's place. Christ's death is then sufficient for all, but only efficient for those who accept Him by faith.

"Conversely, when god bestows grace on people to show his love, but is unwilling to do it for all, it shows that god can not be perfectly loving."

False premise. God IS willing to do it for all, He simply doesn't FORCE it upon anyone. Perfect love can be unrequited.

GCT said...

"Justice is still served."

If the person gets what they do not deserve, then justice is NOT served. There is no way around that.

"That is why Jesus died. He became a substituion in the believer's place."

It is not just to punish person X for the crimes of person Y.

"Christ's death is then sufficient for all, but only efficient for those who accept Him by faith."

How does believing that Jesus died for you somehow make his dying efficacious in relieving your sins? It doesn't. Nothing about the act of believing has any bearing on the morality of your life or of Jesus dying for our sins.

"False premise. God IS willing to do it for all, He simply doesn't FORCE it upon anyone. Perfect love can be unrequited."

If he doesn't do so for all, then he is NOT willing. There is no way around that.

Anonymous said...

If you are drowning and I throw you a life preserver I am willing to help you. If you refuse the preserver and choose to drown it wasn't because I lacked to 'will' for you to take it. I just wasn't willing to FORCE you to grab hold.

GCT said...

Funny you should bring up life preservers.

Unfortunately for you, god does not toss us all life preservers, and the ones he does toss are attached to conditions of acceptance. Since he doesn't toss them to us all, he can not be all loving.

bob said...

Anonymous said...
"If you are drowning and I throw you a life preserver I am willing to help you. If you refuse the preserver and choose to drown it wasn't because I lacked to 'will' for you to take it. I just wasn't willing to FORCE you to grab hold."

If you are observing someone drowning, that is pretty black and white. Whereas, the supposition of God the father of Jesus who came and died to "save" us, is not. The bible says that god is not a respector of persons, yet he clearly is; some get justice and others don't. Ask people in Darfur what they think about Christ' "love" or "grace" - if any believed in god/jesus, I'm sure they feel pretty much shit upon.

fatblue said...

"If you are drowning and I throw you a life preserver I am willing to help you. If you refuse the preserver and choose to drown it wasn't because I lacked to 'will' for you to take it. I just wasn't willing to FORCE you to grab hold."

How come god didn't create all of us with the capacity to realize that we need to grab the life raft? He didn't create us equally and so we don't have an equal chance at grabbing the raft even if its thrown to us.

What kind of messed scenario is that? Your god is an a-hole.