Wednesday, 2 April 2008

The Devil


According to Fox, 71% of Americans believe in the devil. A big red monster with sharp horns that punishes bad people. I suppose that if you believe in Jesus you must believe in Heaven, and Hell, and so by that line of reasoning you can't ignore Satan.
But seriously.

Apparently, he is responsible for all evil in humans; which is strange, because that makes Jesus a bit redundant, really, in 'cleansing us of our sins' - it isn't his responsibility. Besides which, if all sin is down to Satan - who God created - then God is to blame.

And, by the 'holy trinity' rule, God is Jesus as well. So when Jesus takes the crap for all our sins on the cross, he is, in effect, taking his own medicine. It's all very confusing.

PS: Simon Peter says he has a stick as well.

26 comments:

Harry Barnes said...

On your general pro-Dawkins' line, see a different take from a fellow atheist, here -
http://threescoreyearsandten.blogspot.com/2007/02/disservice-to-atheism.html

Carol said...

God didn't create Satan. He created Lucifer who was a mighty angel. God didn't create sin either. But Lucifer thought himself higher than God due to pride and thus created sin. Lucifer also took 1/3 of the angels with him - he convinced them to rebel and to follow him. This was Lucifer's choice, Lucifer's sin. And when Lucifer/Satan convinced Eve to rebel as he did the fallen angels, then sin entered man.

Sin is much more than we can comprehend. It is not only a transgression of the Law but it defiles the land. I can't understand this exactly but it's much more heinous than we're aware of. To my understanding, it's like a disease that has permeated everything - man, animals, and the earth. At the root of all death, sickness, and all that is not pure - lies Satan because he is the cause.

Simon Peter said...

Did you choose to be an athiest? Satan (originally Lucifer) chose to go against God also - but the difference is from yourself - as with all other demons, they know God exists.

God created free will - which i'm sure you've heard of before. So as humans we chose to do what we want to, to either follow God or to not follow God. Once we wake up to the truth that God is wanting us to love Him we need to get rid of the crap in our lives, so really Jesus paying for that is really out of love, not not taking His own medicine, but He is the medicine.

As you say in your first blog, if God came up to you and reveled Himself to you with a few miracles etc, you would admit your stupidity. Myself and a few other disciples of Jesus have experienced many of these miracles etc, so would be great to chat sometime!

GCT said...

When god created the universe, did he not know what would happen before he created it? Didn't he know that Lucifer would rebel? Yet, he did nothing to stop that evil. This is negligence. Further, can anyone really have free will with an omni-max deity? The answer is no. When god created the universe, he created a situation where all was known to him, i.e. deterministic. If god is omni-max, then free will is logically impossible.

Also, the idea of Satan and the trinity both make Xianity a polytheistic religion. Xians created the idea of an evil god in order to place the blame for evil things on this evil god instead of on Yahweh. Unfortunately, the Bible clearly states that god creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). IOW, the Xians here don't have a leg to stand on.

On the issue of Jesus dying so that he can convince himself to forgive us, Mr. X is right, it makes no sense. god caused us to be sinners, then became angry at us for sinners. Then, he decided to forgive us, but only if he could bring himself down here in human form in order to perform a human sacrifice on himself in order to convince himself to forgive us. It makes no sense. Why does an all-loving god demand human sacrifice and then send us to hell if we don't believe (he apparently doesn't mind sending decent people to hell that disbelieve)? Why could god simply not forgive instead of going through such a complicated process? Why doesn't god even understand his complicit actions in all this? Why does god demand perfect from creatures that he created imperfectly? None of it adds up. Simply put, and omni-max deity does not accord with the facts on the ground and does not make a coherent story.

MR. X said...

You not only assume that you know the answers to life, the universe and everything, but that you are some sort of 'chosen one'.

I think it's a lot more stupid to gullibly swallow some dark-age superstition that to understand science.

MR. X said...

I was talking to the Christian there by the way.

Simon Peter said...

Wow! I'm assuming I'm the Christian your aiming that last comment at.

There are some big accusations there! How did you conclude that I was a chosen one!? That's quite funny.

Also, I am a scientist so I don't just take things on face value and follow like a sheep, but study and find evidence for myself. I definitally don't know the answers to life, but only what I learn as I go along.

I love how your working your way through Christianity though and not just taking it at face value, I respect that!

MR. X said...

Simon: you did call yourself: 'a diciple of Jesus', who 'is' a deity. Also, through your scientific inquest, could you tell me if the devil pic is correct, or should he have a stick?

Mr. X

GCT said...

Simon,
"Also, I am a scientist so I don't just take things on face value and follow like a sheep, but study and find evidence for myself."

What evidence (scientific or otherwise) do you have for god or Xianity?

Simon Peter said...

A deity is a god - a disciple is someone who studies under - not a god themselves! So you are incorrect that I think of myself as a 'chosen one', far from it actually.

The picture is quite funny actually, although I've never seen Satan myself, I have a feeling that isn't quite how he looks, but how we have come to know him from peoples imagination or their artistic licence. You can add the stick if you'd like, I'll check on it tomorrow to see if you have.

Simon Peter said...

You seem to twist words - where did I say Satan has a stick?! That seems to be the same problem with your arguments against 'religion', you seem to read what you want most of the time.

gct, no evidence for an Xianity! God on the other hand, plenty of what I'd call 'evidence' including many miracles, but nothing that you couldn't explain away!! So I won't waste your time.

As mentioned in the comment on this blogs first entry - even if you did see the evidence like those in the Bible - they still wanted to kill Him. Seeing is not necesarilly beleiving, is it!?

Mr X and gct, you keep saying there is no proof or evidence - I beg to differ, just because you havn't seen or experience it yet for yourselves, doesn't mean it doesn't exist! True?

Try this;

I have heard there were once dinosaurs that roamed the earth, I've seen minimal evidence of their exsistance, and heard from paleontologists they did exsist, but haven't experienced them for myself, so therefore I don't believe dinosaurs exist?!

If I did see enough evidence of their existance, then maybe I'd believe they exist!

MR. X said...

There aren't any dinosaurs in the bible, so I don't believe in them either.

I would like to hear about some miracles, though...

Simon Peter said...

really?!

GCT said...

Simon,
"gct, no evidence for an Xianity! God on the other hand, plenty of what I'd call 'evidence' including many miracles, but nothing that you couldn't explain away!! So I won't waste your time."

All religions say that they have miracles, so what? It's funny how those miracles only seem to appear to believers and they've become less and less frequent as our knowledge of the world has grown. Funny that. Still, I read your comment as saying that you don't really have any evidence and you can't be bothered to think about it or present any.

"Mr X and gct, you keep saying there is no proof or evidence - I beg to differ, just because you havn't seen or experience it yet for yourselves, doesn't mean it doesn't exist! True?"

True. But, if such evidence existed, you'd think it would be produced, wouldn't it?

"I have heard there were once dinosaurs that roamed the earth, I've seen minimal evidence of their exsistance, and heard from paleontologists they did exsist, but haven't experienced them for myself, so therefore I don't believe dinosaurs exist?!"

Got any god bones that you've dug up?

Simon Peter said...

I could give you a long list of names of people that I've been with as these 'miracles' have happened to confirm my word, but I have a funny feeling it still wouldn't convince you...

There is plenty of evidence of these miracles, one of my good mates has blogged about this over and over, including plenty of produced evidence, but the readers still are never happy with as much evidence as you can throw at them.

Just spend a week with us, that will be your evidence, typing on blogs won't ever be convincing enough!

[Out of interest, what are some other miracles from religions other than Christianity are you thinking of?] Also, about the God bones, you need to be dead to leave bones to dig up...

pilgrim said...

Brothers and Sisters in Christ

The goal of these men are obvious--Let us not waste time with foolish arguments and long defenses. This has been going on for nearly 2000 years. Let us continue to build each other up in our most holy faith, keeping our eyes upward and our minds on things above. Those who are drawn to Christ will find him, for He finds all of His lost sheep.

But these men are not open to dialogue, only ridicule and persecution. Indeed, their knowledge puffs them up, and they will only continue to try and put us to shame with their tests, their questions and their fine sounding arguments. Let us be like sheep and remain silent and dumb.

Brothers and sisters, the Son of Man is coming--let no man tell you otherwise--and when He is revealed from the heavens with power and glory, our hope and vindication will be made manifest. Keep your eyes on the shepherd of your souls.

Grace and peace...

Anonymous said...

Strait-jacket please.

GCT said...

"I could give you a long list of names of people that I've been with as these 'miracles' have happened to confirm my word, but I have a funny feeling it still wouldn't convince you..."

Verifiable evidence please, not hearsay.

"Just spend a week with us, that will be your evidence, typing on blogs won't ever be convincing enough!"

As if I didn't grow up in an overly Xian environment...

"[Out of interest, what are some other miracles from religions other than Christianity are you thinking of?] Also, about the God bones, you need to be dead to leave bones to dig up..."

Well, it was your analogy about dinosaurs. We know dinosaurs existed because we've dug up the bones. Where are the god bones? As for other miracles, a quick google search will give you more than you can shake a stick at.

Solaris Roscita said...

CAROL: You are an idiot. You need much more education. Likewise for PILGRIM. I don't say these things to try and hurt you, but because you are clearly in need of educational salvation (and I have so much pity for you). Forego my advice, however, and that pity shall become contempt.

Simon-Peter: You are lying for a dangerous, ignorant cult, whilst ignoring important facts about the world around you. I have to repeat this only once, I hope: Simon Peter, put down the fantasy world, stop lying. You are not a scientist. If you are, I pity the scientific establishment of your country. Look, if a miracle can be explained away, IT'S NOT A FUCKING MIRACLE, YOU FUCKING MORON! Anyone with any modicum of intelligence understands that IT IS A NATURALLY OCCURRING PHENOMENON. Oh, the miracle of a newborn baby... EXPLAINABLE PROCESS. The miracle of a sunset... EXPLAINABLE PROCESS.

Simon Peter said...

You dont need to leave comments like that Solaris Roscita - that's really discraceful!! You show a real lack of maturity!

Are natural phenomenons things like broken bones healing infront of your eyes or distorted limbs since birth repared at a command, these are not natural occuring phenomenons, these things I have witnessed, right infront of me! I'm AM a scientist, I don't call things like the sunset or births miracles... they ARE special, but yes I DO KNOW they are natural processes! (Just to let you know, I have hardly ever lied my whole life, so don't accuse me of being a lier!)

"You are not a scientist. If you are, I pity the scientific establishment of your country" - I'm in the same country as you!!

"put down the fantasy world, stop lying" - would this statement be true about yourself Solaris Roscita- that you feel trapped where you are in your life, you feel like you can't get out and you hate most people, including yourself because of your insecurities?? You live in a fantasy world - you use your imagination to escape your reality as you lock yourself in your room. You only see darkness surrounding you.

Carol is not an idiot either, she is just stating the facts according to Christianity! According to that, All she says IS correct. You don't say these things to hurt her, and you say she needs education; sounds like you're talking to a 6 year old. Reason like your an adult.

MR. X said...

Think I'm with Simon there.

Solaris Roscita said...

"I'm AM a scientist" with grammar like that I doubt you're even a high school graduate. I mean come on, you shouldn't be in science if your IQ is so low. Do you know of even, say, ten Nobel Laureates who claimed to believe in christinsanity?

"would this statement be true about yourself Solaris Roscita- that you feel trapped where you are in your life, you feel like you can't get out and you hate most people, including yourself because of your insecurities??" - In short, the answer to this is no. As with your world-view, you are wrong.

To expand: I am not projecting, I come from a very loving and stable family where all of us individually discovered simple things (like the fact that christianity is a lie). Maybe YOU know it to be a lie too, maybe you're just interested in controlling people's lives. The salvation army is a leech on society. Why do they not pay tax, like honest businesses? Imagine how much better our country's infrastructure would be if we took all the money from all the religious organisations, then started taxing them at 50%. We would have better roads, schools, public transport; we could build a house FOR EVERY HOMELESS PERSON, and start rehabilitating them into society.

"You live in a fantasy world - you use your imagination to escape your reality as you lock yourself in your room. You only see darkness surrounding you." - you're just making shit up, you fool, and you've used YOUR IMAGINATION to do so. I don't have time to stay "locked inside" a room - as I am too busy studying (and working, for a living), playing sports, performing music and traveling between these things. While we're at it, why don't we admit that without your imagination you would have NOTHING TO LIVE FOR seeing as you claim to be a disciple of jesus (an imaginary being, with whom you have contact ONLY through your imagination(as befits an imaginary being)).

That's your ad hominem attack gone. Why I even bothered to respond to it I'll never know.

"Carol is not an idiot either, she is just stating the facts according to Christianity! According to that, All she says IS correct." - Well according to Jizzlam osama bin laden was correct in blowing up the twin towers, according to christinsanity the pope was correct in unleashing the spanish inquisition (and the spread of AIDS is a good thing), according to judaism, cutting up the penises of little boys is correct (and even holy). Guess what, pal: religion doesn't mean shit in the real world.

"You don't say these things to hurt her, and you say she needs education; sounds like you're talking to a 6 year old." - many people who believe in religion have never progressed beyond the reasoning capabilities of a six year old.

"Reason like your an adult." Look, I'll reason with what, and with whom I see fit to reason with. And this doesn't include people who don't know the fundamentals of spelling and grammar. Are you aware of the difference between "your" and "you're"? A SCIENTIST, ARE YOU? Mr.X, this guy is lying for jeezuz.

BTW fuck respect for religion I piss on jesus and mohammed, moses and aaron, vishnu and shiva. That's right, I piss on (imaginary beings).

In short, you are very stupid (and as such probably not a scientist) and you have engaged in the lowest form of debate. I simply called you out on not being a scientist, and informed Carol that she needs to engage in further study. That was not an insult, merely a suggestion. You'll notice that I didn't use this as an attack against her argument. I merely saw her argument and took what I could from it, then gave her some advice about how she could better engage in argument (that is to say, better informed people make better arguments). As for you, the nature of the things you have said does not weigh up to the things said by scientists I know personally, or those I have read in publications.

One more thing:

"Are natural phenomenons things like broken bones healing infront(sic) of your eyes or distorted limbs since birth repared(sic) at a command, these are not natural occuring(sic) phenomenons, these things I have witnessed, right infront(sic) of me!" - if you have seen any of these things, why did you not make a study of them AS A SCIENTIST and have them submitted for peer review? I would love to read an article about these things (perhaps written by you) in a copy of Scientific American or even that pop-science magazine New Scientist.

Come on, rock the scientific establishment, Mr. Scientist. If you have no proof then you'll know (as a scientist) to STFU because it will look like a lie.

Simon Peter said...

Sometimes grammar errors do get through! Sorry, I suppose that doesn't happen to real scientists does it, my science degree has been called back...

It's a shame people like you destroy having good discussions.

Thanks Mr. X for your blog & discussions, but because of people like this, I think my time here has ended. I don't mind sensible logical arguments, like we have had previously, but this is ridiculous and offensive - it is not called for.

All the best in your search for the truth! ;)

Solaris Roscita said...

Whatever, you've been called out on not being a scientist, so now you'll run off back to church or whatever. Spelling and grammar mistakes destroy the very essence of what you're doing in communicating (ie. conveying ideas meaningfully) and as a university graduate you should know such things. But the truth is, you haven't provided us with any proof that you went to uni, you haven't provided any proof that you're employed as a scientist. I maintain that you're a liar.

Simon Peter said...

So what proof do you actually want - me to send you a copy of my graduation certificate and my scores for each subject - telling you my qualifications stands for nothing here, you don't believe anything I say anyway, so give me your address and I'll send through all the relevant documents if you're that obsessed about me.

(Since when has anyone needed proof of qualifications, employment, social security numbers etc to comment on a blog anyway...Anyone else wanting to comment on this blog, please give the above details before continuing, or your comments will be discarded.)

These are all pathetic side issues not even relevant to anything, so how did we get caught up in this distraction!!

I'm guessing the email you sent me was because of my 'pathetic cut and run attempts‏', but I'm not running I just have better things to do with my time.

Also, your attack on the Salvation Army saying they are a 'leech on society' is low too. Why don't you go out with them for a day or a night, put yourself out to see what they ACTUALLY do, and the length they go to help others and then criticise them - you won't - you'll take it all back.

All the Officers of the S.A. don't even get a salary if you want to attack their finances; they live in voluntary poverty so to put others less fortunate before themselves. It's sad how you can judge from the outside without stepping into their shoes first.

Thanks, but I must 'cut and run' now as I said previously.

GCT said...

Actually, there are reports of the S.A. only helping people who submit to being proselytized to. Care for the needy shouldn't come with strings attached.

I also would like to see taxes levied on churches, although I think the 50% level is too high. I don't think we should over-tax churches; they should pay the going rate that any other organization has to pay, or they should have to submit to the rules of non-profit organizations.