Tuesday, 1 April 2008

Introduction


For those of you who jumped to conclusions after reading my provocative title, I am not a fundamentalist: if God strolled up to me in a bar and performed a couple of miracles I would become the most rabid apologist in the West; sadly, due to the poor quality of His representatives I am obliged to differ. This blog is basically a chance for apologists to put forward their arguments to someone.

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

if God strolled up to me in a bar and peformed a couple of miracles I would become the most rabid apologist in the West

Somehow I doubt that. Jesus performed all sorts of miracles and they still killed him.

GCT said...

"Somehow I doubt that. Jesus performed all sorts of miracles and they still killed him."

You mean that Jesus "allegedly" performed all sorts of miracles. Considering we have no solid proof that Jesus even existed, let alone that he performed any miracle, it's a rather strong statement you make that you can't back up with fact. The fact remains that atheists reject the notion of god because of a lack of evidence for god. Given evidence, we are more than willing to accept that evidence and change our minds. Believers, OTOH, believe in the absence of evidence and are much less open to countering facts and arguments. Remember that the next time you enjoin someone to be more open minded.

Mr. X,
I hope you don't mind me arguing against the apologists.

Matthew said...

Best of luck with your blog. I wish you all the best. You will certainly be in my prayers.

God Bless you.

MR. X said...

Actually, that wasn't genius. Matthew:

I bless you as an atheist. By the convenient quotation I found you are now saved.

AMEN.

pilgrim said...

Brothers and Sisters in Christ

The goal of these men are obvious--Let us not waste time with foolish arguments and long defenses. This has been going on for nearly 2000 years. Let us continue to build each other up in our most holy faith, keeping our eyes upward and our minds on things above. Those who are drawn to Christ will find him, for He finds all of His lost sheep.

But these men are not open to dialogue, only ridicule and persecution. Indeed, their knowledge puffs them up, and they will only continue to try and put us to shame with their tests, their questions and their fine sounding arguments. Let us be like sheep and remain silent and dumb.

Brothers and sisters, the Son of Man is coming--let no man tell you otherwise--and when He is revealed from the heavens with power and glory, our hope and vindication will be made manifest. Keep your eyes on the shepherd of your souls.

Grace and peace...

Natural Health said...

If you are searching for the truth, Check out Jack Van Impe's message The End time www.jvim.com, also Back To the Bible.org
If you truly want insight with The God, no little god, God will reveal himself to you. Jesus came that we might have life, He is the Light of the world, no man can goto the Father accept by him. If Jesus had not came and died and arose we would have no hope.Jesus laid down his life for us, no greater love has ever been known. How people can look at the sky, the seasons, the body, creatures and not believe that we are wonderfully made and not an evolution is beyond comprehending. Each time we take a breath of air and lay down for hours at night to sleep and are able to wake up the next day is nothing short of a miracle.If people turn to God, he will lift the veil from their eyes, blindness of the truth is what leads people on the wrong path.

GCT said...

Natural Health,
"If you are searching for the truth, Check out Jack Van Impe's message The End time www.jvim.com, also Back To the Bible.org"

How do you know that's the truth? I could just as easily say that if you are looking for truth, you should read the Koran or the Talmud, or refer you to atheist sites or Hindu sites. What you really need to do is present some evidence that your beliefs are true.

"If you truly want insight with The God, no little god, God will reveal himself to you."

That's demonstrably untrue. Most atheists in this country were Xian at some point. You'd think that if god had revealed himself, then they would not have de-converted.

"Jesus came that we might have life, He is the Light of the world, no man can goto the Father accept by him."

People were alive before Jesus came, so this statement makes no sense. And, why do I need Jesus for the father to accept me? Isn't the father all-loving? It seems as though you are saying that the father only accepts those in an exclusive club.

"If Jesus had not came and died and arose we would have no hope."

No hope for what? Didn't people have hope before Jesus? What is it that you would not have hope for if not for Jesus, anything? I don't believe in Jesus, yet I still have hopes, etc. Again, this statement is either non-sensical or contradicted by evidence.

"Jesus laid down his life for us, no greater love has ever been known."

How can an omni-potent god lay down his life? Did he really do what you say? Why? For love? Don't people still go to hell? That's not love. Why was it necessary? In effect, the idea was that Jesus sacrificed himself (why was the barbaric act of sacrifice necessary in the first place) in order to convince himself to allow himself to forgive us for the crimes that he himself is responsible for. This is not love.

"How people can look at the sky, the seasons, the body, creatures and not believe that we are wonderfully made and not an evolution is beyond comprehending."

This is not actually an argument for god. Simply because you don't understand how these things arose doesn't mean that god exists.

"Each time we take a breath of air and lay down for hours at night to sleep and are able to wake up the next day is nothing short of a miracle."

Really? A miracle? Why did god have to create a universe where ever single literal act is a miracle. Further, if everything is a miracle, how do you tell? Finally, do you know nothing of biology?

"If people turn to God, he will lift the veil from their eyes..."

Again, demonstrably false for the reasons above.

"...blindness of the truth is what leads people on the wrong path."

I suppose you mean blindness to the truth, right? In that sense, I again ask you how you know it is truth that you have?

Natural Health said...

We are not here by chance, and for anyone to think that we came from nothing and will go back to nothing is destructive, Morally and spiritually. A series of chance mistakes in DNA is too preposterous for belief.

Identifying the one true God!
Compared to all of the other sacred writings, The Bible provides the historical account of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( hindu scriptures –mythological, no historical data that the characters ever existed. The same is true for other religions.
World’s museums contain all kinds of confirming information on historicity of the Bible. Archaeological work has proven the Bible is right!

In Israel the children are taught history from the Old Testament. Romans 2:14, 15- God has written his law in our hearts. What does the Bible offer? The bible is prophecy fulfilled. Prophecy is the missing element in the other sacred writings and scriptures.

God is capable of communicating with every individual that seeks him. Old Testament-Jeremiah 29:13- “You will seek for me and find me, when you seek for me with all your heart.”

God has given us Israel as a sign. Isaiah 49:3- “in whom I will be glorified.”
The Bible talks about the ten lost tribes of Israel being brought back home.
Restoration of Israel.9 Israel is a Nation now!)

The book of Daniel’s in the Old Testament (Daniel 9:1, 2, 24-26) Prophecy of event of Christ entry into Jerusalem, 500 years before he entered and was accurate to the very date.
(Isaiah 46:9,10) “I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”

GCT said...

nh,
"We are not here by chance, and for anyone to think that we came from nothing and will go back to nothing is destructive, Morally and spiritually."

Who said we are here purely by chance? Natural selection does not operate on chance. And I fail to see how accepting that we may not have been shaped by some god is somehow morally destructive or inferior.

"A series of chance mistakes in DNA is too preposterous for belief."

Not only do we have evidence that this does happen, that evolution is real and that random mutations can and do lead to new adaptations, but the alternative that you seem to be positing is even more preposterous. You want to replace an evidence based scientific explanation with a non-explanation (i.e. goddidit) that explains nothing and only serves to raise more questions.

"Compared to all of the other sacred writings, The Bible provides the historical account of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( hindu scriptures –mythological, no historical data that the characters ever existed. The same is true for other religions."

If your claim is that the NT gives the best account of the figure that you happen to revere (namely Jesus) then you are correct in that the NT gives the best account of Jesus. This is begging the question, however, in that you have obviously decided that Xianity is the way before even looking at the other books. Further, we have as much evidence of Buddha as Jesus, and we have more evidence of Mohammed than Jesus, so your latter claim is simply false.

I realize this is your response to how you know the truth as well, but there's still something missing. You still don't know that the Bible is true or that god exists. The Bible might be highly accurate (it's not) and god may still not exist. Or another religion might still be true. How do you know that you have the truth? I'll answer for you...you don't know it. You may believe you do, but you don't know it, do you?

"World’s museums contain all kinds of confirming information on historicity of the Bible. Archaeological work has proven the Bible is right!"

You mean like the total absence of evidence of any exodus, or the total absence of real evidence of Jesus's existence, or the total absence of any evidence that if he did exist that he did or said any of the things attributed to him? Please study up on some actual archaeology before making such claims. Also, I would be surprised if the Bible didn't get some things right, but that doesn't mean that it is holy or divine, unless you want to say that all historical fiction is also divine.

"The bible is prophecy fulfilled."

So, the Bible is a fulfilled prophecy in itself? Someone decided to write down their religious history and you want to claim that as some sort of fulfilled prophecy? Really? Or, are you claiming that the Bible makes predictions that have been fulfilled? Which ones? How about the prediction that Tyre would be destroyed (it still exists) or that Egypt would be (it still exists) or the myriad prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled once written after the fact (like the twisted efforts by the NT authors to place Jesus in the correct locations for his birth, even though none of them bear any resemblance to history - oh yeah, more of that history doesn't fit the stories thing).

"God is capable of communicating with every individual that seeks him. Old Testament-Jeremiah 29:13- “You will seek for me and find me, when you seek for me with all your heart.”"

If god is capable, it's quite apparent that he doesn't do so, contrary to the quote from Jeremiah. Even if you don't think that atheists who were former Xians like myself qualify, you have to at least think mother theresa would qualify. Have you read her accounts of her loss of faith because god would not speak to her? So, if he does have the capability, he's not using it.

"God has given us Israel as a sign."

Ah no. We set up the country of Israel ourselves, some in the hope that it would help bring about some Biblical prophecy. This is pretty weak.

"The book of Daniel’s in the Old Testament (Daniel 9:1, 2, 24-26) Prophecy of event of Christ entry into Jerusalem, 500 years before he entered and was accurate to the very date."

It is not at all apparent from the passages what exactly is being predicted, which is a common tactic of those who make predictions. Make them vague enough and someone will find a way to interpret it so that it miraculously seems to have come true. Further, the NT writers were well versed in the OT, so it would be no surprise that they wrote their mythical figure to exactly conform to what it was said should happen. Of course, once again, it ends in comedy when things like his birth are taken into account.

"(Isaiah 46:9,10) “I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”"

I'm surprised you would end with this quote. This seems to say that you either want to assert that the Bible says god is real, so therefore he is, or that you are completely ignorant about what god seems to be saying here (or both I suppose). This quote clearly has god saying that he's going to do what he wants to do no matter what. But, there are many problems with this. If god has done what he wanted from the beginning, then all disasters and evil and etc. are from god at his word. Also, it shows that he has no regard for morality, or that he regards morality as being from his whim. There also seems to be a streak of 'might makes right' going on in that he seems to justify his view by saying that he's powerful enough to do what he wants, so he will. But, we know that this is not a moral position to take. Primitive peoples might have thought so, but we should know better in this day and age.