Bring Your Sunday Best

Following up on yesterday's post, we always hear that there are wonderful arguments for god and tons of evidence. Ask about either of these, however, and the only sound you invariably hear is crickets chirping. So, how about it? Theist readers, bring your evidence and arguments for god. Bring the good ones that I keep hearing about. Dust off your arguments from C.S. Lewis, Aquinas, or Plantinga and astound us. I'm an open-minded fellow and if your argument is good enough you could convert a heathen!

UPDATE (5/11/08): It's been almost 2 weeks and after 18 comments there have been zero arguments for god or Xianity presented, zero evidence presented, and a whole lot of anger from Xians. One Xian commenter has had the intellectual honesty to admit that (s)he has no evidence, and for that I applaud her/him. Where are the great arguments for Xianity I'm always hearing so much about?

Do I Need a Ph.D.?

Many apologists dismiss atheist arguments as being unserious. We obviously can't have a good argument against god and theology because there aren't any for such serious topics that thoughtful, professional theologians came up with over the years. Obviously. Harumph.

So, what are these serious theological arguments? Aquinas's 5 proofs that have been destroyed repeatedly? C.S. Lewis's shoddy arguments trying to apologize for god's crap treatment of all of us (we have to suffer so that we can appreciate not suffering; because god couldn't have created a better world?), or Plantinga's off-the-wall ideas about how it's rational to believe in god since we can't be certain that he doesn't exist (making it also rational to believe in Baal, Allah, FSM, Russell's floating teapot, etc.)

Ah, but dismiss those arguments and make counters and apologists will simply note that you are wrong, that you haven't really addressed the issue, and then go on their merry way not bothering to actually look at your argument or show you what is in error. Why? Because you can't possibly be serious or erudite enough to point out the holes in such intellectual heavyweight arguments unless you also have a Ph.D. in making stuff up. Well, it doesn't work that way. I don't need to have a Ph.D. in theology to be able to read the Bible and see the holes in it. I don't need that Ph.D. in order to read the arguments of the theists and see the holes in them. Most of these arguments are third rate, yet theists have simply accepted them as great simply because of confirmation bias. How many times have theists come here and simply said that our logic is full of holes but not been able to back it up?

OK, rant over.

Evangelical atheism in Peru

I was quite astounded at the arrogance displayed by American evangelicals who travelled to South America to convert "the unreached". These "ignorant" farmers apparently needed to hear the Good News before they died, so as not to burn in agony for infinity. Many Catholic sites have a "pray for them" widget featuring exotic cultures that have not discovered the joys of Jesus and child abuse.

It's this kind of mentality which theoretically justifies the nauseating torture used on Catholics/Protestants/witches in the dark ages: which was done with good intention - 'if we stick weights on Joe heretic until he repents then we're sending him to paradise'.

What confuses me is how Jehovah seems to have got more liberal over the centuries; if it was okay to have a slave or two in the nineteenth century then why has he suddenly gone Democrat about it now? The erosion of religious morality and scientific denial has to end sometime.

Mary

I didn't know this until reading Hitchens' book: some Xians believe that the virgin Mary would not have been pure enough to carry god's seed unless she herself was conceived immaculately. Are you kidding me? Doesn't this set up an infinite regress? If Jesus could not have left Mary untainted by original sin, then she too would still be tainted by original sin unless her mother was an immaculate conception and so on. So, not only do some Xians posit that a woman got preggers without having sex, but so did her mom. Something that we know is biologically impossible happened not just once, but twice.

What is it about being virginal or not having sex that makes one pure? Why is sex considered dirty and why do Xians have such a pre-occupation with the sex of others? This compulsion to label anything sexual as shameful is one of the more perverse parts of Xianity. Apparently god gave us something enjoyable and necessary, then decided that it was a bad thing we should avoid. But he gave us free will as well; which is a bad thing in his eyes, since he made us vulnerable to temptation. Is there anything about Xianity that makes sense?

Jesus and Family

Do Xians love their families? According to Jesus, they shouldn't. First he preaches that children who don't honor their parents should be killed - as the OT law says (Matt 15:4-7); but then he contradicts himself: we should not call our fathers dad, since only god can be "father" (Matt 23:9). We should abandon our families for god (Matt 19:29), etc.

In one particularly telling passage Jesus, in Luke 14:26, instructs his followers to hate their father mother wife children brethren and sisters. Wow. It doesn't stop there though. He even says that one must hate oneself in order to be a follower of him. So, how many of you Xians hate yourselves? Is that healthy?

Was God asleep at the wheel?

If Jehovah himself cannot muster enough foresight to prevent corruption from entering his perfect kingdom (it's happened before you know), how can Christians know for sure that Jesus will not allow evil to enter and corrupt Heaven: an obvious problem. If he's so omnipotent why hasn't he kickethed Satan's red ass?

Creationism

I've just finished Dan Dennet's influential book on Darwinism, and passing mention was given to a certain species of rat; they live underground in tunnels and have a queen. When this queen gets grotesquely large from pregnancy she is unable to eat her own excrement (a popular option, it seems, for these rats); therefore she begs for that of other rodents, and sees that it is good.

A type of fly like to propogate their genes by laying eggs. In the heads of ants. When these eggs hatch they turn into maggots. Which eat through the brain of their hosts until they are large enough to survive in the wild.

The ichneumon fly is parasitic in the living bodies of caterpillars and the larvae of other insects. With cruel cunning and ingenuity surpassed only by man, this depraved and unprincipled insect perforates the struggling caterpillar, and deposits her eggs in the living, writhing body of her victim.

Do you still believe in God?

Mr. Christian

I was just wondering why you happened to choose Christianity over other religions? You have studied and evaluated all the other faiths I suppose? And presumably found a difference (one fundie thinks he's got the only religion with a living prophet). It wasn't your parents that convinced you was it?

Psst: If you choose Islam you get a ton of virgins.

Enjoy Your Life?

If Xians enjoy their life and think that Jesus wants them to, they haven't read the Bible very well. In Luke 16, the parable of the rich man contradicts this - rich man is sent to hell while Lazarus goes to heaven. (What is Lazarus doing in Abraham's bosom? Doesn't god frown on gayness like that?) The only explanation for this is that the rich man had a good life on Earth, so he's being punished for it. Lazarus gets to go to heaven because he had a rough life. So, if you are a Xian and you have a good life, what does that tell you? If Jesus wants you have fun then he wants you to go to hell, according to his parable.

god's puppets

A persistent refrain in the apologist's bank of sound bytes is that god killing people (committing genocide like in Noah's ark or simple death) is not a bad or evil thing because god created us, hence he can destroy us at will. Is this really the case though? Parents create their children, yet we cringe at the thought of a parent harming its child. So, why is it acceptable for god? Answer: it isn't. When god brought us into the world, he gained a moral imperative to treat us with justice, fairness, etc. It would be sheer cruelty to bring a person into the world with the express purpose of treating it badly, yet this is exactly what god does. god is not love, god is immorality and injustice.

When god sends people to hell, he is further guilty of immorality. He brought that soul into existence knowing that he would end up in hell for eternity being tortured. This is simple sadism.

Prayer

Why do Xians pray? Apart from the fact that prayer studies have shown that prayer is not effective, does it really make sense to pray? Does god not know what you want to have happen? Isn't god aware of everything? Do you really think that god will heal some child of cancer if you simply remind him that he should?

BTW, why does Jesus pray? Isn't he simply praying to himself? What's the point in that?

Was Jesus really sent by a god?

Christians apparently feel it would be much safer to believe a lie based solely on faith, (Pascal's wager) than to have nothing to believe in.

I think the human brain cannot easily accept that there is nothing else beyond this reality; because this is the only reality our brains have ever known, therefore the brain in its infancy seeks to incorporate and look toward a wishful lie, to satisfy its reason for existence and its own continuation, (a self-made delusion) to keep the brain from thinking that its only purpose was for a one shot deal here on earth: a promised paradise thought up only to be confirmed in our holy books penned by primitive men.

But then, a promised paradise must have certain stipulations to be met, since nothing is really totally free, (from our world view); therefore there must be loops and hurdles and boundaries one must overcome - there is a price to be paid - something must be sacrificed before we can achieve a preconceived goal. So naturally before we can enter a pure and holy sinless place such as a Heaven, our souls need to be cleansed and washed from our filthy wicked sins. So how do we physical beings do this from earth? We need to sacrifice a pure sinless person to take on our sins for us, so he can cleanse our filthy souls before we can enter the pure sinless paradise. So what constitutes and guarantees a sinless person? A pure sinless virgin, that has not been touched (down there) by a man - heaven forbid that a man toucheth a woman before she is wed. But if she is clean and untouched, then away we go, the gate to salvation has been opened, it's time for a savior to be born. It was all so simple - just a few phrases to explain the secret to salvation was all that was needed, but instead we get volumes upon volumes to shore up the lies that man has created from his fear of death and now he cannot back out of.

God wants us to be with him so much because he loves us, but it is totally out of his hands and so he had to divide his power and relinquish his authority over to his predestined son, oh after some consideration of about 4000 years, to help god save and tally lost souls.

Is the Bible god really in total control? Since he lost control of evil in heaven in which he himself created, according to Isaiah 45:7

The beginning of all evil for us humans, it was the woman's fault!

She is the cause of all wickedness and evil brought upon this world. Had she just not listened to that evil Satan. Ironically it is the evil Female (Mary) who rescues and bails all of us heathen infidel sinners out of eternal punishment, by rejecting a man's touch down there and keeping herself pure and having born a messiah out of god's love for each of us and she delivered us all a savior baby, Jesus The Christ Saviour Of Nasty Rotten Souls.

Were the Bible writers totally insane or is it just me, for not being able to believe such idiotic nonsense? What do you think?

Righteousness

What makes someone righteous? I think the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a good guide here. It starts with the ridiculous scene between god and Abraham where the omni-benevolent, all-loving god decides that the he needs to commit mass murder on all the inhabitants of S and G. Abraham barters with him and gets god to agree to spare the righteous inhabitants. If Abraham had not interceded, then god would have simply killed the whole lot of them (no pun intended).

So, god sends his angels down and Lot gives them shelter, thus making him righteous. Apparently. It also - apparently - makes his family righteous somehow; but probably because he only had a wife and two daughters (although it should be noted that the sons-in-law were to be spared as well) and well, they're just property, right? Well, god generally treats women that way, so at least this is consistent. Anyway, this righteous man tries to placate the crowd of angel-sodomizers by offering to send his two daughters out to be raped. (Interesting side note: his daughters were married, yet they were still virgins for some reason?)

Long story short, they flee the city and god destroys all the other inhabitants, but decides his wrath is so great that even looking at the destruction shall turn one into a pillar of salt, without warning of course. So, Lot's nameless wife looks back (she doesn't need a name since she's Lot's property as per god's decrees, right?) and is instantly turned into salt. How dare she look back at her home that she just had to flee! Of course, Abraham looks at the destruction too and nothing befalls him, but perhaps this is explainable in that he might not have watched it happen but only seen the aftermath. Any way you slice it, no one comes out looking good in this story.

Omnipotence?

Is god omnipotent? Not if you read the Bible he's not. Check out Judges 1:19 where god is unable to defeat an enemy that has iron chariots.

Of course, in a stunning contradiction, god has acquired the ability to defeat iron chariots just 3 chapters later in Judges 4:13-16. I wonder if he's mastered defeating steel chariots yet. Would my car count as a steel chariot? Do you think that if god appeared to me I could run him over and he'd be defeated?

Hell

Why did god create hell? Aren't we told that Jesus's message is one of redemption? Yet god creates a place where no redemption is possible, where people are tortured infinitely for finite crimes - making god infinitely unjust. The real question is, why do Xians try to save people from hell? Isn't it part of god's plan? If god didn't want people to go to hell, then he wouldn't have created it; he did though, and in a way where most people will go. As a Xian, by trying to save people from hell, aren't you counteracting god's will and plan? Shouldn't Xians be happy and gleeful when people die and burn - since it's god's plan coming to fruition?

Incidentally, if god is omnipotent, why can't he tackle Satan?

Theology

Theology. Where do I begin? Why is this even a subject? Almost every religious apologist ever has claimed I do not have the knowledge to dismiss their claims.

Our origins and behaviour should be studied by scientists and philosophers; religion is the alchemy which preceded chemistry, an explanation by the ignorant.

To which information other than a dusty book full of mistakes does any cult have access to?

Miracles?

Isn't it weird that atheists never experience miracles; that those apparently chosen by God to bear witness are those that will unquestionably accept what they see as reassurance for their strange convictions? Further, many miracles are incidences of 'God' making up for errors that could only have been caused by himself: a child with cancer, an injured man, etc.

If any god has this power to do good then why only employ it occasionally, to untrustworthy sources? Why not heal all amputees perfectly and cure AIDS? Why have Aids? Why have the miracles got less miraculous as our scientific understanding has increased?

The Apocalypse

Revelation describes a time when four horsemen will roam the Earth, destroying mankind. Whether these guys are metaphors is doubtful - one, by general consensus, is the Antichrist: who Christians believe exists. According to the bible, an apocalypse is inevitable; 'weather change' actually appears to be one of the symptoms, along with: 'wars' and 'economic disaster'. Not that this prediction wouldn't fit in with any period of time.

In America many Christians think environmentalists are doing wrong - as the planet has no future and God wants it to die. This, along with most militant religion, makes God out to be largely impotent; 'intelligent' apes are required to exert his wrath.

Maybe, if ever, humans establish themselves on another planet, Christianity will finally dissolve. Darwin may have thought similarly.

Conditional Love

Just a quick post on this subject - since it's already been covered extensively; but did God really have to torture himself to convince himself to forgive own creation? And does he really have to torture those of his own creation that don't believe he did it?

There seems to be a lot of 'torture' in this 'loving' agreement. Maybe God's a sadist.

But then, he can hardly get mad at those people who display anything other than a medieval perception of purity; I won't even get into Catholicism here. They actually believe they perform ritual cannibalisation of Jesus.

Do Xians Even Read This Stuff?

Exodus 13...I love Exodus 13, because in it god commands the sacrifice of every newborn male Jew and head of livestock to commemorate god killing the firstborn of every Egyptian family. Very kind of him.

Then, he put a beacon of light up for Moses and his crew to follow...where they toiled in the dessert for, what, 40 years or so? C'mon. Do you mean to tell me that it took them 40 years to walk from Egypt to Israel? Of course, there's not a shred of evidence left behind of this massive exodus. Nothing has been found in the dessert to show that any of this took place.

So, Xian readers, have you actually read this stuff?

Response blog

Now I hear that someone's created a blog in reponse to mine. You can just find anything on the internet. It's at: http://www.whyihatemrx.blogspot.com/

What I have to put up with

"I checked out the site very briefly. Presenting the gospel to a militant atheist seems to me to be a waste of time, since the person has apparently already rejected the gospel. Jesus told His disciples to wipe their feet as a testimony against those who rejected the gospel they presented, and not to cast pearls to swine (in other words, don't waste your time trying to tell someone the Good News of the gospel if they obviously refuse to accept it). Though only God can change hearts, and He can change any heart He chooses to change [for example, Saul, a persecutor of the Church, was changed by God to become Paul, the greatest Christian missionary of all time]; nevertheless, unless I feel led by the Lord to witness to someone who has apparently already rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ, I don't see much purpose in it, other than merely starting a fight, which is pointless. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. However, we can and should pray for him to come to Christ, so that he will not suffer eternal torment in Hell."

Free Will?

Is it even possible to have free will? Supposedly, it's OK that god allows/causes evil, because we have a choice in what we do. Apart from the fact that our choices don't make it OK for god to damn us, isn't He omnipotent and omniscient? Doesn't that make free will logically impossible?

Think about this. When god created the universe, even before he started creating, he knew what all of us would do, down to the smallest detail. He knew what we would think, feel, act upon, etc. Knowing all of this, he set the universe in motion. Had he wanted it to be different, he would have set up the universe to work differently; but he didn't. Since god knows all that I will do, say, think, feel - and has known it from the beginning - my path has been determined since god willed the universe into existence. If he didn't want me to be an infidel, then why did he make me one?

Default

This is my first post here and I'd like to thank Mr. X for giving me an opportunity to share some of my thoughts. I'll just jump right in.

Why do theists - usually those who reject evolution - consider god to be the default condition? A recent commenter asked whether man can create life from dirt (only the Bible says it did); so to prove evolution dirt has to be made. I assume that this means he'll keep his god belief until such time, but why? Why is god belief the default for theists? If science has an unanswered question, is it god? This is fallacious reasoning surely?

To address this specific example, we know how the Earth formed - which has nothing to do with evolution. Why is this not enough? Should forensic scientists have to kill someone in the lab to prove that a murder happened? Of course not, so why should scientists have to re-create the universe in order to prove that the Earth isn't 6000 years old?

Noah

I said I'd get to this sometime. When Noah was SIX HUNDRED YEARS OLD God told him that, although the rest of civilization were full of sin, Noah was perfect; thus, Noah was instructed to build a 450-foot boat. With eight people.

When the Ark was ready, two of each species were loaded on. (Where he got penguins in Israel I don't know. Presumably he took the smallpox virus with him as well.) Then God made it rain for forty days and forty nights. Which would make quite a puddle. Whether the entire Earth would be swallowed up by that is doubtful. Where Noah got water for all the animals I don't know either.

My point is that the Bible shows large marks of human creation. Although hardly anyone believes this story, my question is why anyone believes the other ones.

Chance

Here's a gem I found on a Christian website:

"Cancer is not wasted when it is healed by God. He gets the glory and that is why cancer exists."

God?

If God doesn't mean there to be starvation then he's not omnipotent; if God does mean there to be starvation then why worship the bastard; if only man is made in the image of God and only man sins then why is there so much pain, starvation and suffering in the animal kingdom?

If God only sends those who acknowledge him to paradise then why create those who are prone to infidelity and why so much evidence against himself? Why send one Jewish person to tell the 'truth' when he could've just made everyone Jesus. A whole planet full of Christs.

See how he never exerts his wrath on the gentiles anymore? We had a bit of rain down in England but "two cats soaked" hardly compares to "everyone except Noah." They didn't even think about abortion in Gomorrah. They weren't even that liberal three thousand years ago.

I think God's given up and moved somewhere more conservative. When they stopped stoning people in Alabama that was it for Jesus.

Earth?

I'll make the minor assumption for this post that God created the Earth and Heavens in seven days. Strange that it took only 24hrs to create approximately 1000000000000000000000000 stars and their respective planets, whereas the humble Earth took a week - but I'll let that pass for now.

Surprisingly, though, modern Christians don't seem to have much respect for his installation. "A nuclear war would involve nothing more than the transition of many millions of people into the love of God, only a few years before they were going to find it anyway": coming from the Archbishop of Canterbury. This begs the question regarding the necessity of us being here in the first place; couldn't Jesus use his omnipotence to judge us and then place the good in Heaven (which must be better anyway).

Why are we here then. If anyone has the answer I'd love to hear from you.

Sheep

Maybe this is a bit obscure, but has it ever came to your attention how many sheep metaphors there are in the bible: the Lost Sheep, the Sheep and Goats, the Good Shepherd; Christians are often referred to as 'the flock'. Now as much as it pains me to take advantage of such an easy point, sheep are dumb, lazy animals that blindly follow each other toward what is desirable to them - a place in paradise, for example - without thinking it through.

I checked this out on some biblical sites, and they don't dispute it. They even patronise atheists as being 'unable to find the flock again'. Then they go further and praise qualities such as 'lack of direction' and 'defenseless':

"Even the fowls of the air have some type of defensive mechanism. Not so with sheep!"

And on that profound thought I'll finish.

The Devil

According to Fox, 71% of Americans believe in the devil. A big red monster with sharp horns that punishes bad people. I suppose that if you believe in Jesus you must believe in Heaven, and Hell, and so by that line of reasoning you can't ignore Satan.
But seriously.

Apparently, he is responsible for all evil in humans; which is strange, because that makes Jesus a bit redundant, really, in 'cleansing us of our sins' - it isn't his responsibility. Besides which, if all sin is down to Satan - who God created - then God is to blame.

And, by the 'holy trinity' rule, God is Jesus as well. So when Jesus takes the crap for all our sins on the cross, he is, in effect, taking his own medicine. It's all very confusing.

PS: Simon Peter says he has a stick as well.

Heaven?

There is something inescapably immature about the philosophical belief that when we die we are sent to a magical paradise where all our dreams come true. Or maybe that's just me. It is consoling when Fido's being scraped of the windscreen. The idea has been effective in keeping the poor in their place throughout history: it doesn't matter if you spend all your life in appalling conditions making money for someone else if your duration is only a fraction of an eternity in Eden.

What confuses me is the lifestyle of people who really do have faith. Surely anyone who is certain they will be rewarded so richly will not take any chances. 50% of America's population should be crowding round the poor in Africa and Asia. And why does death grieve people who 'know' their loved ones will be with them again in somewhere other than a comparative shithole?

Maybe that's just my depressive cynicism. But what's for certain is that until people realise that this is probably 'it' then we will continue destroying our planet.

Questionable Parables

David and Goliath: At first glance this seems to be a heartwarming story where the underdog wins; however, the defeat of a larger enemy through superior weapons technology isn't always praiseworthy - look at Hiroshima. Maybe that was a bad example. If I suckerpunched a boxer would that make me pure of heart?

The Prodigal Son: Why work hard? The son who was loyal to his father was stepped upon whereas the son who stole money and acted morally was treated like a saint. Jesus told us that anything goes as long as there is an apology afterwards. The Lost Sheep: "I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance". So why are Christians so uptight about sinning?

Ten virgins: If anyone understands this give me a note.

The problem with religion...

The problem with a belief that: inside one of the countless billions of galaxies in the universe, on a tiny isolated planet, you are individually being monitored by a loving deity that has your interests at heart; is that it does not favour modesty. The self-absorbed smiles on any religious person will tell you that.

For a faith that supposedly favours the meek (it depends which page of the bible you read) Christianity teaches us to ignore the work of countless generations of scientists because of one bronze-age source. So the Earth is six-thousand years old. Well I never.

If you take Noah literally, email me NOW!!! I want to hear from you.

Introduction

For those of you who jumped to conclusions after reading my provocative title, I am not a fundamentalist: if God strolled up to me in a bar and performed a couple of miracles I would become the most rabid apologist in the West; sadly, due to the poor quality of His representatives I am obliged to differ. This blog is basically a chance for apologists to put forward their arguments to someone.