Why did god create hell? Aren't we told that Jesus's message is one of redemption? Yet god creates a place where no redemption is possible, where people are tortured infinitely for finite crimes - making god infinitely unjust. The real question is, why do Xians try to save people from hell? Isn't it part of god's plan? If god didn't want people to go to hell, then he wouldn't have created it; he did though, and in a way where most people will go. As a Xian, by trying to save people from hell, aren't you counteracting god's will and plan? Shouldn't Xians be happy and gleeful when people die and burn - since it's god's plan coming to fruition?
Incidentally, if god is omnipotent, why can't he tackle Satan?
24 comments:
Lets all embrace the flaming love of Jesus.
Praise Jebus!
I noticed in an earlier post that someone claimed the Jews doubt the existence of Jesus.
They do not doubt that he was a real man who walked this earth. They do not consider him the Son of God. They consider him "just a prophet". If you don't believe me, simply ask any Rabbi (as I have) and he can set you straight.
You have not apparently learned a life lesson we should all have.
Several years ago, I was gung-ho working for the Mondale presidential campaign. I was convinced that he would win. After all, everyone I knew loved him!
Reality showed me that outside of the Mondale family, I was but one of a very small number.
Believe what you wish, but reality is you are but a part of a very small number of people that do not believe in Jesus Christ.
I will opt (as you said) to not return to this site. What made me shake my head, in particular, was your pretzel logic when it comes to hell.
Keep this in mind, eventually you will have only atheists reading it and you can pat each other on the back all you want...
Then you were wrong inspite of your deluted vision towards Mondale, just as you're wrong again in your deluted vision of Jesus and hell.
Millions of Bible scared ignorant believers does not constitute a truth, as you are suggesting.
Incidentally, if god is omnipotent, why can't he tackle Satan?
true dat
anonymous,
"Believe what you wish, but reality is you are but a part of a very small number of people that do not believe in Jesus Christ."
You're conflating here, and that's just the first thing wrong. There's not any good evidence that Jesus existed, but what you are implying is that almost all people universally believe that Jesus was alive and that he was holy. You are also implying that because many people believe in something, that it must be right. I can give quite a few counter-examples if you wish, but I don't think I have to. I think you realize that appealing to popularity is a logical fallacy without specific examples.
"I will opt (as you said) to not return to this site."
I think I know what you are referring to, and I was not asking you to leave. I was answering a specific charge you leveled against this blog that we are attempting to force our non-beliefs on others. I was simply pointing out that there is no coercion going on here. I would actually rather have dissenting voices on here than a wind tunnel of agreement.
"What made me shake my head, in particular, was your pretzel logic when it comes to hell."
Pretzel logic? Do tell. What, specifically, about my logic is wrong?
What a dumbarse. Probably the rabbi was just trying to be conciliatory. Try going to any intelligent rabbi and start out by saying you're an atheist. Then ask him if jesus existed. The answer you will get will most likely be completely different to the last one you got. But really, I don't know, maybe rabbis are just as dumb as priests and ministers...
If I've read my Bible correctly, God cast Satan out of Heaven? Doesn't that imply some sort of God's dominance over Satan?
Is this the best you've got? Surely with all the philosophy study you could make up a better argument then that. How can there be redemption if there is nothing to be redeemed from? Of course if someone doesn't want to face the consequences of their actions the first thing they try to convince themselves of is that there aren't any consequences. The name calling of your wise little followers helps to drive home the point too.
There isn't a redemption
twochannelstation,
god may have cast Satan out, but Satan was not fully defeated and can still lead people to hell, can he not? Thus, god seemingly has no ability to stop people from going to hell due to Satan. If god were omnipotent and omni-benevolent, why then does he allow Satan to trick people into going to hell?
ceeslouis,
"Is this the best you've got?"
I don't see you making very valid counter-arguments. If you wish to criticize, then perhaps you would like to bring some valid argument to bear against mine?
"How can there be redemption if there is nothing to be redeemed from?"
There is no redemption from hell. Once one goes to hell, one is tortured for eternity. If you are speaking of redemption from this life, then you are making a rather odious claim, that we are all evil, wicked, and horrible. This is very anti-human in its nature. It also exposes a god that created us this way and then seeks to punish us for it, or at least a god that creates impossible goals then punishes us for not reaching them. Should I punish my dog by torturing it for not speaking to me in English? Of course not.
"Of course if someone doesn't want to face the consequences of their actions the first thing they try to convince themselves of is that there aren't any consequences."
Ah, but there are consequences, and many more just than what god has planned. If I steal a loaf of bread, does that merit eternal torture as punishment? I may have to pay back what I stole or spend some time in jail - which would be a consequence, would it not - but torture is rightly classified as beyond the pale for such crimes. god, however, has no qualms about torturing any of us that dares to not believe that Jesus somehow came to die for our sins in a story that makes absolutely no sense.
"The name calling of your wise little followers helps to drive home the point too."
The people who post on this site are responsible for their own words. I can speak for myself when I say that I have nothing to do with what other people say. Even though others may be rude, however, it does not diminish the logic of my argument.
Being an atheist is so sad. Having no chance to live beyond 70-80 limit years? No soul, no eternal life, nothing just big mass of decaying cells after death. Very sad perspective. I feel sorry for you.
"There isn't a redemption." gct seems to have answered that one.
"we are all evil, wicked and horrible. This is very anti-human in its nature." On the contrary, the most wicked, evil horrible acts you see committed on this earth are committed by humans.
"Jesus somehow came to die for our sins in a story that makes absolutely no sense." Of course it make absolutely no sense to those who are an enemy of God. Why would God die for someone who hates Him? It is hard for us to understand because we wouldn't do it.
ceeslouis gives us more proof that 2+2=5. Sorry, this particular Winston Smith won't crack under your torturous logic.
Enemy of god! bwa ha ha ha ha ha!
Man, you don't know anything about "god". You're "his" REAL enemy, mate!
"won't crack" "bwa ha ha ha ha ha" Did I get the right amount of "ha's" in there? Explain again about "logic", I must have missed where you applied it.
Likewise.
Jay,
"Being an atheist is so sad. Having no chance to live beyond 70-80 limit years?"
Huh? Sipmly because you believe that you will live on after you die doesn't make it so.
"No soul, no eternal life, nothing just big mass of decaying cells after death. Very sad perspective. I feel sorry for you."
How very condescending of you. What is it about an afterlife, however, that makes this life somehow better? If you are going to heaven, then the thought of living this life should be horrible to you, because it is keeping you from your eternal reward and happiness beyond your wildest dreams. How sad for you that you are being kept from direct communion with your god, right?
There's nothing sad about being an atheist. I don't need a mythological deity and an afterlife to make me appreciate this life and want to be happy in this life. In fact, pining for an afterlife - that has no evidence for it - is simply counter-productive in that regard.
ceeslouis,
"On the contrary, the most wicked, evil horrible acts you see committed on this earth are committed by humans."
And, some of the most beautiful things we see are also committed by humans. Your theology, however, glosses over this point and attributes all of our good points to god, while internalizing all of our faults. This is inhumane and derogatory towards the human race, as I pointed out. Besides, telling people how rotten and evil they are is not a good strategy for getting people to do good things.
"Of course it make absolutely no sense to those who are an enemy of God."
Why wouldn't god want to make sense to all people so that we would all believe and want to follow him? Isn't that what he supposedly wants? Instead, he stays cloaked in shadow, does things that don't make sense, and then punishes us for falling for his ruses to confuse us.
"Why would God die for someone who hates Him? It is hard for us to understand because we wouldn't do it."
How did god dying for us do anything for us in the first place? How did god dying absolve us of our sins? How can a god die in the first place? Why did god need to kill himself in order to convince himself that he should let himself forgive us for the sins that he himself made us commit? Not only does it not make sense to those who don't believe, it doesn't make sense period.
"Sipmly because you believe you will live on after you die doesn't make it so"
Simply because you don't believe you will live on after you die doesn't make it so.
"What is it about an afterlife that makes this life somehow better? If you are going to heaven, then the thought of this life should be horrible to you, because it is keeping you from your eternal rewards and happiness beyond your wildest dreams."
I forget, are you argueing for or against the existance of God?
(see Phillipians 1:23)
How sad for you that you are kept from direct communication with your God, right."
no
"simply counter productive in that regard."
What do you consider productive?
"internalizing all of our faults."
By calling them "our faults" you automatically internalize them.
"telling people how rotten and evil they are is not a good strategy for getting people to do good things."
What good thing do you think I am trying to get people to do?
"Instead, He stays cloaked in shadow, does things that don't make sense"
Instead, we stay cloaked in shadow, and do things that don't make sense. (see John 3:20)
"Why did God kill Himself in order to convince Himself that He should let Himself forgive us for the sins that He Himself made us commit?"
Who is this "us" you are talking about?
"Not only does it not make sense to those who don't believe, it doesn't make sense period."
You are right about the first part, you're not really in a position to speak for the rest.
(see 1 Peter 2:7,8)
ceeslouis,
"Simply because you don't believe you will live on after you die doesn't make it so."
I think if you look at what I was responding to, you'll see why I made that comment. If you are right and there is an afterlife, my disbelief in the afterlife doesn't mean that I "have no chance" for an afterlife. It will happen or it won't and whether I believe or not has no bearing on the reality of the situation. I think we can both agree with that.
"I forget, are you argueing for or against the existance of God?"
Actually, this argument was aimed at the fact that Xianity is not life affirming.
"no"
Care to expand? Don't you believe that heaven will be paradise times infinity? Why would you not want to be there? Why would you want to prolong your life if you could be in heaven?
"What do you consider productive?"
Pining for an afterlife.
"By calling them "our faults" you automatically internalize them."
I'm speaking specifically of the Xian teaching that all of our good is attributable to god while we are vile sinners. This is hateful rhetoric.
"What good thing do you think I am trying to get people to do?"
You lament that sometimes people do evil things, so perhaps you would simply want them to not do evil things? Telling them that they are evil is counter-productive.
"Instead, we stay cloaked in shadow, and do things that don't make sense."
Are you really going to use the rubber/glue approach to debate? The fact is that there is no evidence of god, yet he supposedly wants us to know of him and worship him and will punish us for not doing so. He knows what I would need to believe in him, but does not do whatever needs to be done. Also, if we turn towards darkness and away from god, whose fault is that, considering that god made us this way.
"Who is this "us" you are talking about?"
All of human-kind apparently. Hey, it's your book, not mine.
"You are right about the first part, you're not really in a position to speak for the rest."
Then perhaps you would be so kind as to explain it, and in the process you could actually answer some of the questions that I posed.
It's a waste of time turning on a light for a blind man who enjoys being blind.
The only light produced by religion is the consequence of a burning scientist.
ceeslouis,
This is a typical refrain from apologists who know that they don't have logic and reason to back their arguments. So, they retreat to the refrain that we must be willfully blind and unreachable. This is patently false though. I was once a Xian, as were most atheists in this country simply because we were born to Xian parents. It is through not being blind to the illogic and irrationality of religion that I decided it is bunk. Further, you are contending that god would rather us be blind and not do all he can to elucidate us so that he can send us to hell. If he truly loved us and truly wanted us to come to heaven to be with him, he would not sit idly by while we persist in disbelieve when it is so easy for him to prove he exists.
I believe in GOD and heaven and HELL also.Acording to his teachings we have an IMORTAL SOUL which will go to HEAVEN or HELL after we die.Well this SOUL belongs to us and we can do with it what we want.All who believe in GOD are afraid of HELL [WHY?]For those who REALY HATE JESUS don't let him have your SOUL send your soul to HELL to show him how much you HATE him.I can show you the way at my blog- http://cursejesuschrist.blogspot.com ALL true belivers are AFRAID of GOD and to break his LAWS.I have no such fear and do all i can to break his LAWS.So if you REALLY and TRUELY hate JESUS come to my BLOG and show me.
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